[spoilers] Dragon Slayers and Warrior Knights, Oh my!

[Ranamar]

Yeah, the actual culture plan didn't work out for Mist in VII, but the original model remains sound in theory. I will consider it if it's viable but with Toroidal wrap I doubt that is the case.

Sound in theory eh. I'll have to take your word for it, as I'm still trying to piece together from other threads, just what the heck happened after Krill spawned as Hypercube or whatever its name is. (It was VIII by the way :P)

Hyborem... but the idea of having an evil hypercube makes me giggle.

[WarriorKnight]

I've been thinking about it, and I believe Mining after Agri is superior to Calendar. While slightly more expensive, gems are better then incense for agnostic Grigori, and the other benefits (mines, chopping, copper) outweigh the only other major benefit of Calendar (Agrarianism).

What I'm trying to decide is when to switch out of Pacifism into Nationhood. I can either do it t0, after the first worker or a double switch same time as God King or Agrarianism. The only reason I'd switch out t0 is because I want to have a reasonable chance of getting a GS as my 2nd GP, and switching out of Pacifism to delay the first and therefore second GP seems like the best way to give me time to tech Myst and get maximum Sage points. Probably a bit of a red herring though, thanks to Adventurer pollution I'm not going to get above 50% odds for the GS if I want Agri-Mining first, it just has to be decided via the RNG which isn't reliable at all. So no t0 switching then. After the first worker? Depends on how painful the -20% military production is, with a Shade it isn't as bad as usual, but wasting hammers early in the game is a big no-no regardless.

[WarriorKnight]

ORG may not be so useless after all. Due to the starting shade and lush capital, there's a decent chance I could make it to Military Strategy and build/cash rush some Command Posts before t71. That would be fairly awesome, meaning I can skip considering ORG for future Adaptive switches. OTOH, the less obvious effect of starting shade is that the 2nd trait change at t146 will probably be far too late to make a huge difference, so it might be worthwhile picking something like CHA for 71-146? Depends on several things, but if I can build some Command Posts before t71 then there's very little reason to switch to ORG, and there aren't a whole lot of good alternatives to CHA or perhaps RAI.

[Ranamar]

there aren't a whole lot of good alternatives to CHA or perhaps RAI.

Yeah, not really...
SPI isn't very good for you because you can only use half the trait (although that is sometimes quite powerful)
FIN got nerfed, so you'd need to really want cash
AGG is generally considered worse than RAI, and probably still would be even if you want to build the buildings
CRE is basically worth 40 hammers in each city and that's it; that's nice, but it's not enduringly powerful
IND... how many wonders are you planning to build, anyway? Hopefully, you'll have workers already built by T71.
I forget if anything happened to EXP, off the top of my head, but it's basically settler hammers and health.

Those can all be useful, but they're not quite as versatile as CHA, and RAI is still probably the nastiest offensive trait.

[WarriorKnight]

Picks and Turn Order:

Sian - Arendel Pahedra of Ljosalfar
Yell0w - Thessalonica of Elohim
jalepeno - Decius of Calabim
The Black Sword - Cardith Lorda of Kuriotates
HidingKneel - Arthurus Thorne of Khazad
WarriorKnight - Cassiel of Grigori

Having just wrote a postgame analysis for PB1, I don't feel like writing an analysis for this tonight. However, I will say that the 2 players I consider the most dangerous arguably got the best picks meaning I have my work cut out for me, and perhaps the first of many signs I should've chosen something a little more mainstream. The other 3 civs are interesting, nothing particularly weak but not that scary either.

I will go more in-depth then this later of course, perhaps in 2 parts. One with the 3 weaker picks, and one with the 2 major contenders and myself (of course I'm a major contender ).

[WarriorKnight]

So, going in reverse order of predicted finish:

5/6th place - Sian - Arendal (CRE/SPI) of Ljosalfor

I'll admit I don't know much about Sian, having only briefly looked up the games he's played. He's played lots of BtS (some of them green games), but only 1 FFH game where I believe he was eliminated early (right?), so effectively he has no prior FFH MP experience.

Ljosalfor are elves, so they have the ability to build improvements on forests. Combined with FoL religion, elves are excellent builders and the prime late game economic threat here. It's a good choice for him since Arendal is a great beginner civ due to the one right religion choice and no concern with anarchy/border pops. However, even so I'm not sure Sian will be able to pull off a win here. He just doesn't have the FFH experience that almost everyone else here has, although I'll admit that he has decently in BtS green games so he may just surprise me. What he wants is a long, predictable game with lots of time to get the elven economy going, but I doubt he'll get the time with boosted starts. He'll be difficult to kill thanks to his WS but, being the double-edged sword it is, will cripple his economy in the process if left too late.

My policy? - No idea tbh. He should be sticking around for a while if he makes it to FoL, which I don't see why he shouldn't this after being scarred last time. Might be a good late game target if I can get the WS out of the way. A rush will not be worthwhile since he can probably get to FoL before then.


4/5/6th place - The Black Sword - Cardith (EXP/ADA(PHI)) of Kuriotates

Black Sword is a complete newcomer on the forums, so I can't really place him accurately. Indeed, out of everyone he's the person I have the least clue on, and therefore no idea how to rank him. He's apparently played FFH quite a bit although a EitB newbie. He could be anywhere from below Sian's level to somewhere around Yell0w/myself.

Caridth is easier to figure out. Their specialty is being able to work the third ring, although they have a city cap to compensate. They should be able to claim the early lead quite easily, the question is can he turn that lead into a game-winning advantage before the city limit catches up to him? Hard to say exactly. Also if he fails to claim a lead early game then he is in trouble.

My policy? - A rush is a possibility, although it depends on a lot of factors. If not rushing then I don't see us working together well. He is my main competition for early game non-religion races such as Form of the Titan, Drama bard and maybe Bone Palace. Due to that we will work well together if he doesn't compete with me for them. Otherwise I don't see much hope for us until someone else overtakes him, assuming of course he's good enough to claim that lead. Possible late game target if he falls behind.


4/5th place - Yell0w - Thessalonica (SPI/IND) of Elohim

Yell0w has played a number of FFH games on this forum before, although I haven't lurked any of them in great detail (and hence, everything else in this paragraph is somewhat of a guess). He seems to know the military side of the game quite well, and is decent at the economic game too, although I think he's missing something there. I put him above Sian due to his previous FFH experience, below me since I think I can outplay him at building.

Thessalonica is a fun pick. You've got the IND worker boost along with boosted disciples which Elohim like to use. Elohim themselves are mostly kinda weak, except for their WS. Sanctuary grants Yell0w a perfect defense for 20t in a game where very few defensive strategies exist, but it can also function as a decent offensive spell if played correctly by being immune to counterattack. Other things include a heroic archmage at Fanaticism, and a civ trait that lets him build uniques of other civilizations. I'm not going into great detail about Tolerant here, but with Compact Enforced he would get the most out of Calabim and Kuriotates, useful stuff from Khazad and Grigori (me) and minimal benefit from Ljosalfor.

My policy? - Befriend if possible. I believe I can outplay him peacefully, and I'd to avoid being looked at as a target. A rush is out of the question thanks to Sanctuary. Could potentially be the only other person who could be useful against the inevitable leader(s). If that doesn't work, get him to burn Sanctuary ASAP and stall for time until it wears off, where he'll be a much easier target.

[WarriorKnight]

there aren't a whole lot of good alternatives to CHA or perhaps RAI.

Yeah, not really...
SPI isn't very good for you because you can only use half the trait (although that is sometimes quite powerful)
FIN got nerfed, so you'd need to really want cash
AGG is generally considered worse than RAI, and probably still would be even if you want to build the buildings
CRE is basically worth 40 hammers in each city and that's it; that's nice, but it's not enduringly powerful
IND... how many wonders are you planning to build, anyway? Hopefully, you'll have workers already built by T71.
I forget if anything happened to EXP, off the top of my head, but it's basically settler hammers and health.

Those can all be useful, but they're not quite as versatile as CHA, and RAI is still probably the nastiest offensive trait.

Out of all those, IND is the one that appeals most. Late game is all about production, and saving hammers on wonders and getting a reason to build forges is the best trait for accomplishing that. There are a few wonders I have an eye on (Epics/Form of the Titan/4 Towers?/Culture victory wonders?), but like I said before that means no CHA which could be very useful for a mage spamming strategy. EXP could be a possibility if it turns out to be a super REX map, or I could stay ORG/go FIN in that case too, IND is probably better for long term though.

I'll post part 2 at some random time, perhaps today sometime.

[WarriorKnight]

Part 2 of opponent analysis:

2/3 - WK (me) - Cassiel (PHI/ADA(ORG)) of Grigori

What can I say about me? Well, since I haven't really analyzed myself before:

• Macro - 4/5 - I'd say this is my biggest strength, in BtS anyway. I'd hardly claim to know everything in FFH never mind EitB, but I am starting to get a good handle on the differences and how to play EitB right. Of course, I need to prove myself in-game first before making claims like these, which is something I haven't done yet.
  
• Micro - 3/5 - I'm decent here too. I have enough experience to have a fairly good idea of what I should be building/working/improving etc., but that's mostly due to repeated experience. If this map requires a unique strategy I haven't come across before I won't be that great, but hopefully with no strange map quirks it won't come to that.
  
• Diplo - 2.5/5 - Could be better. I have enough experience at this to realize the true nature of NAP's, but I'm not opportunistic enough to do much else other then mutual cooperation. I also need to look past the tone of message into what people are truly saying, so I don't get used like in PB4. I was really hoping this could be off, but alas simulated in-game diplomacy will have to do.
  
• War - 2-2.5/5 - I suck at this in BtS. In FFH its easier since the only think you have to think about is how to hit them before they hit you, but I have yet to prove myself against a competent opponent at equal tech at warfare in general.
  

As for the Grigori? Well, looking at everyone else's picks, there's no Amurites/Balseraphs/Sheaim/ARC/CHA in the game I'm the best at the arcane line by far. I think I will have to focus on that. It would be wise to focus on a secondary unit line as well, since mages are so weak in direct combat. Options:

Disciples are out sans Luonnotar, for obvious reasons.
Melee are out as well, Calabim and Khazad both do them better then me.
Archery sucks, and Ljos do them better anyway, so no.

That leaves mounted and recon. I'd prefer mounted(HA's) but Kurio's can do that line better then me. Recon wouldn't be terrible, I'd want Hawks and Assassins regardless and Rangers can upgrade into Luonnotars, but Rangers are more expensive then HA's and have penalties against cities. Not a decision I have to make anytime soon, OTOH if I upgrade my 1st adventurer into a warrior then most of this is out the window and I'll have to focus on either chariots or melee.

Back to opponent analysis, I rank myself higher then Yell0w but lower then HK and possibly lower then jalepeno. Speaking of which:


1/2/3 - jalepeno - Decius (RAI/ORG) of Calabim

Another RB newcomer, however unlike Black Sword I've placed him above me for a few reasons.

• Has mentioned beity Deity EitB regularly. Impressive feat, to say the least. While EitB Deity isn't quite the same as BtS Deity, its a accomplishment I don't think anyone in the bottom 3 can do, and one that I might be able to accomplish with some difficulty. This indicates solid macro.
  
• Has mentioned sand boxing the opening moves before choosing civs. That takes commitment so he should have, at worst, solid micro.
  
• His pick, the Calabim, is one of the better ones in the game. Better then the Grigori and arguably better then the Khazad for sure.
  

His downside is that he hasn't played any MP at all, so like Black Sword he's hard to place. He could be like me in PBEM3, and treat the game like SP without serious consideration to opponents and subsequently underestimate them, or he could be like Thoth in PBEM3 and sweep the competition up after being seriously underestimated. I'm going to assume the latter to avoid repeating mistakes.

As for the Calabim, well there's a reason they were the best civ in the standard game. They've been hit fairly hard by the nerf stick in EitB, but they are still a force to be reckoned with. Free production from cheap UB courthouses will help him build expensive vampires that can get practically as many promotions as he wants, then take on the world. Easiest way to stop them is by stopping the Calabim from reaching Feudalism, or somehow winning before they come for you. Could also conceivably rush for Fanaticism for Losha Valas and try something to reach Vampire Lords at Divine Essnece which are obscene. Takes a while for Calabim to reach any of these though with no Elder Councils, although the boosted starts help him get there quicker. The late game military threat for sure, Vamps can also take Magic Resistance quite easily and put my arcane plans in a pickle.

My policy? - Best rush target, assuming jalepeno isn't skilled enough to see it coming and react appropriately (not a good assumption to make). Hope someone else (yell0w?) deals with them before Vamps are reached. Try to become ally and direct him to attack everyone else if it turns out he's weak at diplo. Worst case scenario, Luonnotars are almost immune to spectre spam and are possibly the only thing that saves me from being annihilated easily if I can get them quickly enough. Otherwise, erm... not much can stand up to a properly promoted Vampire.


And finally we have:

1/2 - HK/Mardoc - Arturus (IND/ORG/ING/MGR) of Khazad

Oh boy, here we go. Unlike jalepeno, both these guys have played a lot of FFH here. And its fairly safe to say both are better then me. Mardoc is in many ways quite similar to me, being best at macro, and that role is suited for a ded-lurker. We played our first RBPBEM in the same game but he's played many more then me between now and then and therefore has more experience at the game. I know less about HK, but he's proven he is a capable force in the several games he's played here. HK's weakness is perhaps macro, something that Mardoc can easily make up for. Only the unknown force of jalepeno might be able to compete pregame, but otherwise these guys are the favorites.

I had Arturus as my 2nd pick for a reason. Khazad are a fun civ to play. Workers are boosted by being able to move onto hills in 1t, although the worker boost is mostly irrelevant. Trebs rock now they can get mobility promos, and Khazad have a strong incentive to research to the now very cheap end of the metal line. They are the only civ not able to get mages, but they probably wont need them if they are careful with trebs. Worse, Magic resistant means that mage spamming won't work on them, so I'll definitely need to rely on other units against them. Late game, Overflowing Vaults give them 90% production boosters compared to everyone else's 25%, and Dwarven Druids own anything that is not magic immune with their awesome crush collateral spell. 2nd strongest late game military threat after the Calabim.

My policy? - Really depends on how strong jalepeno is. If he's as capable as I think he is, then I might be able to play the two off each other somehow. If not, then I am the main pregame competition against HK and therefore will have trouble doing diplo with him, and early on this will probably be the case regardless unless HK has the same lack of foresight I have. A early rush is not feasible since HK will undoubtedly see it coming, and they will want metal ASAP anyway. Can't really compete with them in late game production either, especially since they are Magic Resistant, and Mithril chariots can easily overcome their lack of speed... Hmmmm, I'm having a hard time figuring out how to deal with these guys. Perhaps hope for a miracle to blindside them into a NAP and then rush for Tower/Culture? Guess I have to hope jalepeno shakes this conundrum up somewhat. I guess it's very easy to get Shock promo, and Khazad really only have 2 types of Tier 3 units available (the other being chariots).

[teleh]

Very good. Your Oracle of inexperience speaks:

* Sian - (shit I just searched his name and ended up clicking their spoiler thread - but saw *nuzzing* a-la-Clink) - No idea. Haven't seen Sian play in, nor read any game threads including. Wildcard to me, a lot of posts to his name so obviously some experience (and maybe underrated as last pick. Maybe).

* Black Sword - I was almost going to contract his username into BS - and obviously with that early slight, he wins by Karma. Haven't read any threads of his either (this will become a theme) but from what you're saying you guys have Wonder overlap. I'd suggest it may be useful to acknowledge this in early diplo and maybe get some lines of demarcation going on. Could be a handy ally longer term if this is handled well.

* Yellow - I have read one of the earlier games played by Yellow. As I can't remember if it's still running and I don't know who participated, (although it's not the current PitBoss which I haven't read but have seen you're part of I think, not sure if he is,) I will say one word: Beware.

* jalepeno - Not sure, few posts on RB (fewer than me even and that's saying something). Is he a ringer from Civ Fanatics or something? References to Diety and Sandboxing don't necessarily make the player but you're probably right to be a bit cautious... I guess. Not overly so though, and his #2 might be a bit overblown if it's just based on heuristics. A bit of early diplo might make all the difference.

* HK/Mardoc - Well hey hey. I certainly have seen Mardoc as an active member and anyone who's active here - is obviously enthusiastic about their chosen games and therefore, risky. From what you've described about their Civ and Leader, commonsense tells me these guys are hoping to take an insurmountable lead in the mid to late game and dominate. If you want to be a pariah, this team is your early rush target if it's possible. Otherwise, calmy disseminating these concerns to others during some early game diplo (diplo, diplo, dlplo, Marsha!), might get it done for you, as long as you don't make it sound desperate. If you have a few players thinking along the same lines, then it needs to be done early.

* WK - **YOU**! - Again no familiarity with the player but seems well-versed in EitB and is participating in the first EitB Pitboss AFAIK. Obviously no slouch, and Cassiel/Grigori is an interesting pick. I doubt he'll go for a Cultural victory despite this, and presume instead that he'll counterbalance the lack of available religions (barring a convenient lair zealot, for example, limited as the usefulness may be) with adventurers and other GP spam, providing a hefty dose of versatile 100XP units, making mid-to-late game quite painful for everyone else if he techs intelligently. Truly I have NFI though - the cards will have to fall as they may here.

Standard knew-beh disclaimer applies.

[teleh]

(Hey also WK - wondering if you'd consider posting in the public thread that dedlurkers might still be needed for teams? Or something of the sort at least suggesting that? I notice that a couple of the player threads don't have many posts and imagine that could get a bit isolating and perhaps participants wouldn't want to spruik for themselves. You being the eloquent and straightforward type I wonder if it'd be an easy line to suggest? It's probably more fun for everyone with at least a bit of outside input from others, don't you think?)