[SPOILERS] Team EggHeads: DMOC and TeddyKGB (Now Lurker-Friendly!)

[DMOC]

Hm ... your last one is pretty interesting. It does get the settler out quick, but I wouldn't settle on top of the plains hill in this case. The main reason is that we're already going to be a bit short on production, and there's no guarantee we'll get extra hills when we move there. We do get 3 useless tiles, though the fish will still be 5 food 2 commerce even if the capital isn't coastal. Though there's also the risk of getting bad tiles if we move 2 west ... but even the tundra forest isn't bad since we can get 20 hammers from a chop.

By the way, our official leader pick is Suryavarman II (Exp/Cre) of Byzantium (Hippodrome/Cataphract). Our starting technologies are Mysticism and The Wheel, so we'll have to likely start out with some form of Hunting -> AH to improve our food. If we settle in place, we'll get some much-needed commerce which could help us land an early religion.

I'm agree with you that settling on PH could be not optimal in the long run. Just wanna explore this option too.
Although, in my opinion, hammer boost from T1 is pretty valuable. On screenshot above its 35 free hammers on T36.
Settling GH and work PH mine gives you 0f/5h. Vice versa: 1f/5h.
Of course, settling on coast is another story, but we'll be teching so slow (especially compare to almost everyone FIN here), I just doubt we'll be safe after tech Fishing and build WB. All my sims was like we decide ignore Fishing and move inland, so it was PH vs GH settling. If u don't mind, I'd like to optimize PH start and you or anyone else could sim coast or GH start so we can compare and decide later. With all that fog it could be useless, but we can't help it right now. For all we know could be double wet corn and gems in BFC if we settle on GH.
One more thing, there is a small chance Copper/Iron is on that GH, so settling it wouldn't be so hot.

Just ignore China flag on my screenshots. I did start with Myst + Wheel in my sims, just too lazy to make a new WB file.
Tech was Hunt>AH>Mining>BW. As you can see BW due T42.
Worker goes Deer>Road>Road>Pigs>Road>Mine>Mine. Could save 1 worker turn if skip Road on Deer, but I've started 1st Mine right in turn Mining was researched, same with Pasture, so I don't think its matter.

As for early religion, are you sure we need one?
We are CRE so borders will pop well without it.
We are not FIN so we'll be teching slow and with so many basic techs we need ASAP its hard to find a room for another one.
We are not SPI so we'll lose one turn to revolt.
We already paint a big target sign on our civ (rush them before knights era kinda sign), are you sure we wanna make this sign even bigger with early religion?

On second thought, I actually don't think an early religion is that important to us -- thanks for offering your arguments. Yeah, it definitely seems like we can just focus straight on the worker techs and then after that beeline to either Mathematics or Monarchy.

I'll take another look at settling options. It would definitely be helpful if you tried to optimize the plains hill start. I may have some free time tonight so I can run some sims.

Two and a half more topics to discuss here, if anyone bored with micro.

(1) - We need a team name. Here one of the rules for this game: Every team needs a fancy/awesome/impossible-pronounce-or-remember name.

(1.5) - We need a naming scheme for our cities/units/workers. Something that works with team name, probably.

(2.5) - More serious one. As I see it right now, diplomacy will be pretty important for us to survive till knights. Some picks were a bit scary. We are starting behind with no good techs and no FIN. Can we talk our way out of troubles? How much you respect NAPs? How much you think our neighbors will respect NAPs? Any other thoughts?

I suggested a naming scheme for cities and workers here.

NAPs are pretty well respected around here. I remember back in RB pitboss 4 that Lord Parkin secured really long NAPs, and his rivals didn't break them despite how weak he was in power. Then he had 3 straight mausoleum-buffed Golden Ages and was able to win the game.

I know that I will definitely be respecting all NAPs I/we sign in this game, even if it means I pass up capturing a free worker here and there. We can always try to "cancel" and have a cool-down period as a last resort, but if we have to do that, then our original NAP was too long.

Just a reminder:

8. Team Eagles & Condors - Kurumi / HBHR (with Oxyphenbutazone dedlurking)
Pacal II (Fin/Exp) || ??

10. Team Dinosaurs - Whiteye / Raptorous
Darius I (Fin/Org) || ??

3. Team Master and Margarita - Slaze / Maga_R (with Jovan Kukic dedlurking)
Willem (Fin/Cre) || ??

6. Bowsling / Aivoturso
Mansa Musa (Fin/Spi) || ??

1. Team Orgynized - Lord Parkin / Arkipeller / Magno_uy (with WilliamLP and Dp101 dedlurking)
Huayna Capac (Fin/Ind) || ??

2. Team Blame Caledorn - YossarianLives / Caledorn (with Scooter, Old Harry and Cheater Hater dedlurking)
Isabella (Spi/Exp) || Inca (Quecha (Warrior) and Terrace (Granary); Myst/Agri)

4. Team Care Bears - Yuufo / Bisons
Victoria (Fin/Imp) || India (Fast Worker (Worker) and Mausoleum (Jail); Myst/Mining)

7. Dick76 / DMOC -
Suryavarman II (Exp/Cre) || Byzantium (Cataphract (Knight) and Hippodrome (Theatre); Myst/Wheel)

5. Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony - Classical_Hero / Halvgud
Napoleon (Org/Cha) || Sumeria (Vulture (Axe) and Ziggurat (Courthouse); Wheel/Agri)

9. Barteq / Geo (with Harami dedlurking)
Ragnar (Fin/Agg) || Rome (Praetorian (Sword) and Forum (Market); Fish/Mining)

Thanks! I'll keep this information in mind and put a spreadsheet up once we're all done picking. Once all teams are finalized, I'll also post my early "power rankings" based on the leader combinations, while ignoring who is actually playing.

---

Now that I think about it, I should probably edit the first post and have a "table of contents" style posting. Once we have enough stuff in this thread, I'll do that.

[TeddyKGB]

Every leader had piked.
We got 7 FIN. Vic over Liz kinda surprise to me, but maybe Liz/India is too SullaPB2 for them.
We got 1 AGG (Rome!) and 1 CHA. Both with early UU. Let's hope we don't land beside them or one of them. Rome especially.
We got 1 IND, LP himself, imo best player here, who loooove to buid wonders, as i read in PB4 and PB7 treads.

I know Scooter is very good player.
I know Jovan Kukic from CFC. He is a very very good SP player. Didn't read anything about his MP games, but i believe he is strong at MP as well.
And here is Lord Parkin, as I said, best player here, imo.

Would be nice if anyone had more to add to player/leader/civ analysis or correct mine. Right now or after snake pick is done.

[DMOC]

Simulation with Actual Leader/Setting (Settling in Place)

To my knowledge, this is probably one of the fastest options if we settle in place. I'll try another simulation with Fishing earlier, though.

I set this simulation with the same map setting and the actual leader/civ combination we're playing. To add realism, I made some extra land where barbarians could spawn to simulate danger. Any tile in this simulation that is ice indicates a tile that we do not know.

A quick comment: one possible argument against settling on the plains hill is that we may end up with only 2 hills in the capital that we can put mines in, both of which are grassland! So that's a bit low on production.

Remember, we start with Mysticism and The Wheel.

The basics:

Settle in place.
Capital: Worker -> Warrior -> Warrior (grow to size 3) -> Settler -> Warrior (finish up) -> Workboat
Technology: Hunting -> Animal Husbandry -> Mining -> Fishing

The basics:
-Worker done at turn 12, thanks to expansive (work the pigs after worker is done to grow fast, until deer is finished)
-Worker is "idle" after the first deer, but can build 2 roads on flatland or can build a road on a hill and do 1/2 turns on a flatland road. (I did the latter.) Then the worker improves the pigs, and can do mines once Mining finishes. Note: Do not road the deer! It's already connected via the river, and we get the pre-Construction crossing penalty over rivers. I would road the plains hill forest so we can get to it quickly after Bronze Working.
-Second city ready AND connected via trade route by turn 34 AND with 2 warriors, 1 for each of the 2 cities.
-I played a few turns after, and we can actually get a third city up by turn ~54 (1840 BC), connected via trade route (we would whip the settler) and have another economical tech after BW done (probably Agriculture), and have 2 workers, AND have a total of 5 warriors among our 3 cities. This even assumes that our second city is nothing but ice!

Comments: I think a city 3 tiles away from the capital is quite conservative for a second city, so possibly 4 tiles is a more likely situation. Also, if you'll notice, we finish Fishing on turn 33, so we can start on a 4-turn workboat then. In my sim, I assumed we may need the 2nd warrior (1st one is ideally at our second city site) so the fish will be hooked up on turn 38. If we don't need the warrior, we save it in the queue and finish it after the workboat (this will result in exactly 1 hammer lost due to decay) so the fish could be hooked up on turn 37 actually.

Once the fish is hooked up, grow to size 4 while building a warrior and then at size 4 we can build a worker. After that worker is done, possibly finish the warrior (while growing to size 5) then build a settler at size 5 and whip it. Ideally, we'll convert to slavery after our second worker is finished. The second city should probably build its own worker.

Advantages: Turn 34 for a second city that is connected via roads to the capital is excellent. Looking back at my CFC Demogame team, we (Team Saturn) didn't settle our second city until turn 55 (!). No wonder we were so terrible there!
Downsides: No bronze working before 2nd city, so copper will likely need to wait until 3rd city. Also, fish isn't connected until after the second city.

Some images:

Overall situation, assuming we settle a city somewhere in the region of 4 tiles away. This will work even if our second city is on a hill, because the worker will have finished the necessary road the previous turn.

[TeddyKGB]

Sorry I've missed your Naming Scheme post. I was lurking globally here before asking permission to be your DL, so I've read most of the posts diagonally.
And right after I decide to be your DL and noone say NO yet, i reread your topic diagonally again till starting position posted.
I'm totally ok with your naming scheme,

since I'm a (used-to-be, long time ago) computer scientist/mathematician

student myself.
We need a team name still. Something relaxing maybe, that says we pick Byz/Sury to build Lib/Colleseum/Hippodrome in every city, to educate and entertain every last citizen of our puny peacefull empire. Not because we plan to conquest the world with Cataphracts, of course.
I was thinking 'EggHeads', kinda in sync with math scheme, but english isn't my 1st language so maybe I understand meaning of 'EggHeads' wrong.
For workers I suggest we use A, B, C ... scheme. Like Archimedes, ..., Euclid, Fibonacci, etc. So it will be easier to post here: T66 - A chop, E move9 & 1tRoad, F move7 & cottage, or something like that.
It's up to Dick76 to confirm he is ok with math scheme and propose our team name (hope I really didn't missed his post about naming scheme too).

As for NAPs and diplomacy in general, its up to you completely. Dick76 posted here he skilled in WAR much more than in the diplomacy, though WAR is a part of diplomacy. Or another way around. Maybe both.
For me, as I lurked this forum for some time and never played MP myself, NAPs more of a guidelines not rules.
Should we break a NAP to steal (or delete) Worker on T100? NO (98%).
Should we break a NAP to avoid someone (like LP in PB4) cruising to easy win? YES (146%).
Will our opponent respect a NAP if he gets opportunity to steal (or delete) our Worker on T100? I'd say NO, protect our Worker.
Its just my opinion and I'm glad you are strong pro NAP and value it. I'll try to convince you break a NAP if I would think it'll worth. Your reputation in the community will stay clean, cause it would be my stupid arguments that convince you to trust me.

[TeddyKGB]

Quick comment, still reading your post.

A quick comment: one possible argument against settling on the plains hill is that we may end up with only 2 hills in the capital that we can put mines in, both of which are grassland! So that's a bit low on production.

Production not a problem when u got slavery. Set it to max overflow while put food/hammers in Worker/Settler, slave 2-3 pop, take 30+ hammers overflow, grow till happy cap or beyond, repeat.

I'll keep reading your post now.

Edit: and its not like we can't move capital later, as you said here.

[DMOC]

Thanks for taking the time to read the previous posts. I know there's a lot; I tend to ramble a bit, but I'll try to cut it down so I'm not at Lord Parkin or Sullla's level.

Sorry I've missed your Naming Scheme post. I was lurking globally here before asking permission to be your DL, so I've read most of the posts diagonally.
And right after I decide to be your DL and noone say NO yet, i reread your topic diagonally again till starting position posted.
I'm totally ok with your naming scheme,

since I'm a (used-to-be, long time ago) computer scientist/mathematician

student myself.
We need a team name still. Something relaxing maybe, that says we pick Byz/Sury to build Lib/Colleseum/Hippodrome in every city, to educate and entertain every last citizen of our puny peacefull empire. Not because we plan to conquest the world with Cataphracts, of course.
I was thinking 'EggHeads', kinda in sync with math scheme, but english isn't my 1st language so maybe I understand meaning of 'EggHeads' wrong.
For workers I suggest we use A, B, C ... scheme. Like Archimedes, ..., Euclid, Fibonacci, etc. So it will be easier to post here: T66 - A chop, E move9 & 1tRoad, F move7 & cottage, or something like that.
It's up to Dick76 to confirm he is ok with math scheme and propose our team name (hope I really didn't missed his post about naming scheme too).

As for NAPs and diplomacy in general, its up to you completely. Dick76 posted here he skilled in WAR much more than in the diplomacy, though WAR is a part of diplomacy. Or another way around. Maybe both.
For me, as I lurked this forum for some time and never played MP myself, NAPs more of a guidelines not rules.
Should we break a NAP to steal (or delete) Worker on T100? NO (98%).
Should we break a NAP to avoid someone (like LP in PB4) cruising to easy win? YES (146%).
Will our opponent respect a NAP if he gets opportunity to steal (or delete) our Worker on T100? I'd say NO, protect our Worker.
Its just my opinion and I'm glad you are strong pro NAP and value it. I'll try to convince you break a NAP if I would think it'll worth. Your reputation in the community will stay clean, cause it would be my stupid arguments that convince you to trust me.

-Dick76 didn't comment on the naming scheme, so I guess it's okay.

-I'm cool with naming workers after A, B, C, with my only concern being that other teams might be able to tell how many workers we have. It's definitely something really small, of course, since they'd have to scout the entire empire in order to figure out how many workers we have, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

-Team EggHeads is fine, I actually like it. I confirmed the definition by looking here. I'm a native English speaker (and live in the United States) and even I wasn't sure what "EggHead" meant.

-I wouldn't break a NAP, and I would try to guard workers on the border. I hope I don't have to run into the situation where I have to break a NAP to stop a runaway, which gives me all the more motivation to keep the NAPs brief.

-I'm fine with handling a lot of the diplomacy. My schedule as a college student is fairly flexible.

Quick comment, still reading your post.

A quick comment: one possible argument against settling on the plains hill is that we may end up with only 2 hills in the capital that we can put mines in, both of which are grassland! So that's a bit low on production.

Production not a problem when u got slavery. Set it to max overflow while put food/hammers in Worker/Settler, slave 2-3 pop, take 30+ hammers overflow, grow till happy cap or beyond, repeat.

I'll keep reading your post now.

Edit: and its not like we can't move capital later, as you said here.

I agree that whipping can be extremely useful, but it also looks like we don't have easily farmable land until Civil Service, and I figure we would want to cottage a lot of the grasslands, which necessitates having the population to work them.

If we do settle in place, I imagine we'll make this city a hybrid, with Moai Statues for production (a possible naval center?) and cottages on the grassland for research. With a food surplus of +2 from the center, +8 from the fish (w/lighthouse) and pigs, and +2 from the deer, we can easily run 6 scientists once we have the population. We would probably move the capital inland.

Thanks for continuing to participate in this thread.

[TeddyKGB]

Interesting.

*Some random thoughts, I will edit this post later to make it readable.

- Last screenshot u work 0/3 tile instead of 6/0? Thats 'conservative' settling is made for. With overlap Pigs 2nd city could grow in 4t, while capital building WB.

- I didn't like to to go Set after ONE worker in my sim. In vacuum, I prefer Wo>Wo>Set myself. In this situation 2nd Worker has nothing to do, but road. But we can't delay Worker much either. Some improvements in the fog (I hope it will be Horses) are waiting for our workers to come. At your sim its look like we get 2nd Worker on T42(?), after WB and grow to size 4? At my ss u can see Worker#2 will be ready on T37. I kinda feel its right to go two workers before settler anyway, depends on scouting on T0.

- <something smart about BW timing and security. lose this part of the post so ill edit it later>

- Upload ur start save or WB file here pls. This way my china flag wouldn't bother u.

-I got too much free time. Should post less, get a real life.

- As I said, diplomacy is totally up to u. Just use me as u like. I can be a strong napbreaking warmongering voice of our team when u suddenly on "vacation" (air quotes here). As u return they'll be so happy, so they'll sign NAP till turn 555 if u ask, probably.

[TeddyKGB]

Team Orgynized made their pick. Just a reminder:

8. Team Eagles & Condors - Kurumi / HBHR (with Oxyphenbutazone dedlurking)
Pacal II (Fin/Exp) || ??

10. Team Dinosaurs - Whiteye / Raptorous
Darius I (Fin/Org) || ??

3. Team Master and Margarita - Slaze / Maga_R (with Jovan Kukic dedlurking)
Willem (Fin/Cre) || ??

6. Bowsling / Aivoturso
Mansa Musa (Fin/Spi) || Zululand (Impi (Spear) and Ikhanda (Barracks); Agri/Hunt)

1. Team Orgynized - Lord Parkin / Arkipeller / Magno_uy (with WilliamLP and Dp101 dedlurking)
Huayna Capac (Fin/Ind) || Netherlands (EastIndiaman (Galleon) and Dike (Levee); Fish/Agri)

2. Team Blame Caledorn - YossarianLives / Caledorn (with Scooter, Old Harry and Cheater Hater dedlurking)
Isabella (Spi/Exp) || Inca (Quecha (Warrior) and Terrace (Granary); Myst/Agri)

4. Team Care Bears - Yuufo / Bisons
Victoria (Fin/Imp) || India (Fast Worker (Worker) and Mausoleum (Jail); Myst/Mining)

7. Dick76 / DMOC -
Suryavarman II (Exp/Cre) || Byzantium (Cataphract (Knight) and Hippodrome (Theatre); Myst/Wheel)

5. Team My Little Marathon Cannibal Pony - Classical_Hero / Halvgud
Napoleon (Org/Cha) || Sumeria (Vulture (Axe) and Ziggurat (Courthouse); Wheel/Agri)

9. Barteq / Geo (with Harami dedlurking)
Ragnar (Fin/Agg) || Rome (Praetorian (Sword) and Forum (Market); Fish/Mining)

[DMOC]

If you're going to participate often, you might as well be the third member of our "team," if you have the time.

By the way, how do you post your saves here? When I do the "add attachment" I get an error saying that my Beyond the Sword save is not allowed?

Also, for what it's worth, I've got an excel file of techs for other civs. I've attached that (and it works). We might consider keeping track of this just so we know where everyone stands technologically.

[TeddyKGB]

I have time. I'd like to be 3rd member of your team, but there is some nuances.

(1) I was spoiled before, as you know. I am rereading every of my posts here twice before post reply to avoid spoilers. In fact, there is not much to avoid: I've read most of players treads diagonally (is that a right word in english?), most of that I forget or don't remember exact details.
So far noone say NO to me as your DL, but only one team say OK. If you announce me as a 3rd team member, someone could say NO and I can't argue. We can play till T50-60 or something like that and my knowledge wouldn't matter, imo.

(2) I have a time now, but I'm not a person you can rely on, honestly. I can dissapear for some time. I'll do my best and stay with our team untill our glorious victory.

(3) Its kinda your and Dick76 game. And its really my 1st MP expirience, so I'm happy with a DL role.

(4) Of course, if you both can't play some turns with real life or whatever reasons, I would be happy to move some units.

By the way, how do you post your saves here? When I do the "add attachment" I get an error saying that my Beyond the Sword save is not allowed?

I've tried post saves here, didn't work, files size is too big, probably. So I ZIP it and put it as an archive.

Thx for the excel file. I'll look into it.