NATURE Realm

[namad]

If you raise the cost too much then they're not that useful for web. If you raise their defenses too much then you have to raise their cost.
They don't really need more attack imo because no one cares how much attack a unit has that casts web on turn 1 and then dies on turn 2.
It's true stone/poison are common for nature spells.


Is it possible to make spiders take 1 damage every turn in combat (to counteract their own regeneration)? Ideally I'd want them to regenerate ONLY if you win the battle. That fits with the theme of a spider. Regenerating HP mid-combat does not.
I just assume this is impossible to code in.


I think having both web and spiders at common is a bit redundant though, that's why I suggested making web rarer. That said while web is extremely useful when cast by heroes it isn't necessarily that useful to waste real mana crystals on.

Pathfinding would be a good way to raise how often human players cast the spell, but doesn't really fit the theme.

Right now giant spiders are good against missile units and mages. The problem is that they're only able to neuter missile units and mages not kill them. Which means in mixed armies the missile units kill the non-giant spiders. The non-ranged units kill the giant spiders. Then the mages wake up and finish the fight.

What about negate first strike? It wouldn't really matter that much but it would help keep giant spiders from being splatted by calvary and it might make sense webs would slow down horses?
Alternatively make them have one figure and double their stats? that would help them stay alive (even if they lose missile immunity) but wouldn't raise their killing power much if any?

Another option cut their stats in half and cut their cost in half? Make them utterly worthless in combat but cheap enough you don't mind if they die as long as they get a few webs off first (across a few fights)?


EDIT: would it be possible to make it so when giant spiders perform melee attacks the enemy unit defends using their melee attack? Instead of their defense shield score? This would make spiders hardcounter ranged units a lot harder while making them even weaker against melee units. Probably not code-able and probably not thematic though.

[Seravy]

When doing melee, it has more melee/poison damage and durability than nagas (only costing 25 more and having the web spell)

melee, yes. Durability, no. while 4x5 health is more than 3x5, spiders have 1 less armor and lack first strike. The latter means even units weak to poison will fight back, and damage the spider, while nagas usually emerge unharmed.

I guess this unit is fairly priced compared to nagas but that's the problem.
Nagas are Sorcery creatures, the realm with the weakest summoned units. In Death, a unit like Nagas would cost 50 at most.

I think I have a good idea. What if they had Quick Casting AND higher movement? Then we have a spider that can stop a unit then move in and hit whichever unit has the lowest resistance or is a ranged threat. This would ofc also mean high movement on the overland map. The first problem is a unit needs 7 movement to reach the back row on turn one (even if they were on the front), and that's way too excessive I think. Might as well do 5 movement (so they're identical to cavalry) and rely on web to make sure enemy units don't kill the spider during the turn it takes to reach them.
Unfortunately, walls would still stop them unless we keep wall crusher on the spider. (half non-corporeal is not doable in a reasonable amount of time, if at all) Wall can be destroyed through the use of Catapults or Crack's Call though, both available as uncommon Nature spells, so this is not a particularly big problem, although Catapults are not very efficient at it, only 25% chance per shot.

There is also the problem of being vulnerable to damage - melee units will kill the spiders even if they dispose of ranged units behind them, and even low resistance units can damage the spiders.
Either they would need more armor, more health, first strike, or a lower cost so that the spider becomes disposable.

My suggestion :
Cost : 90 - quite cheap but it's uncommon so it should be more cost efficient than commons. This would also make them quite distinct from other uncommon options that start at 200, as those are hard to afford early.
Armor : increase up to 5 - this is absolutely necessary otherwise the spider would get killed on turn one by the ranged units it is supposed to counter. At 5 armor they can reasonably expect to not die to archers and at least not get one or two shotted by magicians and slingers.
Resistance : Go up to 9 - same reasoning, if the defending magicians make the spiders fall asleep, get confused etc then the unit is unable to do what it is meant to. Nature creatures generally have low resistance, so this would make spiders have one more purpose : cheap, resistant armies that can survive death wizards, unlike all other options below very rare. (which sprites fail to do with their 5x1 health)
Health : remain the same, even if giant, a spider isn't a tank, it should not be able to survive major blows from stronger creatures in melee. 5 armor should be enough to make them durable against typical low resistance enemies and ranged units which they should fight.
Movement : 5, identical to cavalry. These and cavalry in a stack can move at 5 on the overland map, ideal if a target is far or a surprise element is needed.
Abilities : Poison 4, Quick Casting, Web Spell - remove the out of place missile immunity and wall crusher. Against walls, Construct Catapult or Crack's Call should be used, but the ideal strategy is to hit a city before it constructs a wall, taking advantage of the low cost and fast movement of the spiders. Missile immunity is not needed because they can survive the first turn, are cheap enough to afford losing one or two, and web+speed ensures the ranged units do not get another shot.
Research cost : 200 - like werewolves, this unit gets obsolete quickly, and should be possible to rush-research for an early advantage, ideally possible to summon as soon as cavalry is available, which only needs a Stables.

The 5 movement would also make Cavalry a more useful unit since there is now something that can keep up with its fast movement, and make pathfinding much more worth the cost as well. Speaking of which, I think pathfinding should also cost 200 to research. It's nowhere near as outstanding as other uncommon spells - A single ship with wraith form is superior in most cases and that's a common spell - especially as it's a reasonably frequent ability on units and can even be made by pairing mountaineer and forester.

...I just realized quick casting doesn't help at all. You could move the spider 4 forward then cast web which is still better than quick casting. I'm stupid. The above design is good without quick casting, it's unnecessary. Quick Casting is only helpful if you want to attack after your spell (or cast again), but spiders want to move which is doable before casting.

[namad]

I think you might be just making them way too good at actual combat. Which is something they're not supposed to be good at. Not considering how useful web is.
5 shields is a heck of a lot for a unit that costs 90 mana, like, best in the game, and by a decent margin.
What about lower defense+large shield? I know it's not thematic, but the webs could be seen as arrow catchers. That's what your current design does.
Large shield is less awful to be surprised by than missile immunity for sure. Also what about renaming large shield to something like "cover" or some other generic term for being harder to hit with arrows that could apply to small fast units, units surrounded by wind or webs, as well as units with tower shields?


Also I think you should give them quick casting because the ai doesn't do that. Ever. The ai players and ai nodes will cast web on turn 1 and not move first.
Although while we're talking about quickcasting.... if counter magic or a node counters your spell your turn is just over. It'd be nice if your turn didn't instantly end.
If you don't give giant spiders quickcasting AND you make them good, all you've done is add one more tool to the game that the ai has no idea how to use.

Alternatively fix the ai so it will move mages before casting a spell?


I also don't like your statements about sorcery overpaying for summons, they don't overpay for summons, not for the most part. phantom warriors phantom beast sky drakes, and storm giants are all priced competitively. Sorcery doesn't lack powerful and useful summons, it lacks summons period. As in it has very few of them. That's punishment enough. You don't also have to lower the cost of every other realms summons on top of that.

[Seravy]

5 shields is a heck of a lot for a unit that costs 90 mana, like, best in the game, and by a decent margin.

War Bears also have 5 shields and cost 55. And they're far from being the best in the game. Spiders are higher rarity. The new spiders do make bears obsolete I guess but which uncommon creature doesn't?

what about lower defense+large shield? I know it's not thematic, but the webs could be seen as arrow catchers. That's what your current design does.

In that case I would rather keep the missile immunity since neither makes sense. But then there is the problem of the spiders getting killed while they apply their poison to low resistance melee units.

Alternatively fix the ai so it will move mages before casting a spell?

That's close to impossible and even if I did that, mages in general benefit from moving away from the enemy while spiders need to move forward.
It would be nice if AI could move ranged units backwards but don't think I can do it and they'd risk failing to use their attacks if stepping on a non-default cost tile. Checking the tile's movement cost before each step would make the already impossible even harder.

I'll look into quick casting vs counters tomorrow. I agree it might be better for spiders to have it, even if they only have 2 movement left after web, that +5 next turn is enough to reach enemy units and hurt them and without it they would not be able to.

[namad]

good point I forgot about war bears.

I definitely feel like large shields is such a basic skill it could be used more often to make units tanky without making them unkillable. It's not possible to rename it to something more generic is it?

[Seravy]

good point I forgot about war bears.

I definitely feel like large shields is such a basic skill it could be used more often to make units tanky without making them unkillable. It's not possible to rename it to something more generic is it?

Possible, I can even replace the icon but do we have a better idea for the name?

Either way I still think spiders need that armor to be viable for melee combat as well. Nagas have first strike so they do fine, but spiders don't. With only 3 armor a typical low resistance unit will damage them, and something stronger like a halberdier would seriously hurt them, like, kill 2 figures out of 4. It's not a good counter to low resistance units if it dies after killing 2 halberdiers for 90 mana when halberdiers only cost 60 production each. That way it's merely equal to them, not a counter.
Or we can go Fear+Large Shield then we have both missile and melee protection but armor is just simpler, and fear would actually be overpowered on such a cheap and efficient unit since it's save at -3, way higher reach in potential victims than poison which is save at +0.

Speaking of which, what if Gorgons had Large Shield? Minotaurs have it and gorgons look like a flying minotaur. Not that I have any idea why minotaurs have it in the first place.

[namad]

I think spiders need to be bad at something (for 90mana) . I think melee is a fine choice for that.
Against magicians and bowmen and caster heroes even some rare powerful champion heroes spiders are insanely powerful.
The main reason spiders are useless is that they're bad against the most common units in the game (melee units).

If a spider can shut down a caster with 80 caster skill for 3or4 turns while at the same time chewing your magician/bowmen apart I'm not sure it needs to be cheap and capable of killing the melee units. With 5 movement it can just avoid melee units if the enemy army has an imbalance like 2or3 melee units and 5or6 ranged/caster units?

That said if giant spiders are cavalry units, cavalry units are good against weak melee units because of first strike (weak defensively). At the same time cavalry units are amazing against ranged units because they can close the gap quickly. Giant spiders could just gain first strike as well and become fantastical cavalry who are great at killing defensively weak melee units who might hit hard but never get a chance to attack. But against say dwarven melee units the spiders won't be able to slay them and will take a devastating counter attack?

That could be a good place for them. (in exchange for first strike raise cost or penalize defense to 4? or bump them up to 200 mana and give them double the hp or something nuts)...

If you think being weak to all melee units is too weak a position just make them weak to defensively strong melee units who have both high resistance and shields?

Just thinking about other tactical strategy units replacement names for large shield could be uh cover, camouflage, defender... uh from my own mind maybe "Arrow Catcher" or uh the bland "Ranged Defense"... hmm I am sure other forum users have other ideas of names.


I definitely cannot see gorgons having large shield. They could maybe have something like cover or arrow catcher or "rocky skin" or "craggy skin" or something. Gorgons don't to me at least look much like minotaurs at all. Gorgons are already a pretty tough unit to kill defensively. Gorgons have one of the best HP totals for mid-cost summons in the game. Gorgons main flaw is that they cannot deal well with strong units. They're able to handle 100 weak stacks of units but stronger fantastical or buffed paladin style units are immune to stoning and can handle the high hp. If I were going to give gorgons any buffs it would be to attack or gaze penalty.


TL;DR:
Buffing spiders defenses, movement, and cost all at once might be too many changes to make all at once for a good controlled test of the effects of the change.

EDIT: or heck rename large shield to "Ranged Defense +2" it's boring but heck, gorgons or giant spiders or anyone could have it if you wanted them to.

[Seravy]

I think spiders need to be bad at something (for 90mana) . I think melee is a fine choice for that.

Only if we drop poison, since it's a melee ability, it's useless if the unit is too vulnerable. And 5 armor by no means is "good" at melee, a halberdier with 1 level has that much, it's just average.

Against magicians and bowmen and caster heroes even some rare powerful champion heroes spiders are insanely powerful.
The main reason spiders are useless is that they're bad against the most common units in the game (melee units).

Again, only if they can survive the first turn, in which those units will shoot at them. At only 3 armor, they would take too much damage to be effective, since the defenders get the first turn and kill too many spiders before they use web. Don't forget that magicians, slingers, even heroes hit quite hard. If spiders are killed from 2 hits or one, they most likely lose the 9v9 battle, if 3 they win.

But against say dwarven melee units the spiders won't be able to slay them and will take a devastating counter attack?

Since those are high resistance units, they'll take minimal damage : spiders at 6 swords aren't more powerful than a typical halberdier without levels, but the spiders never gain any.

If you think being weak to all melee units is too weak a position just make them weak to defensively strong melee units who have both high resistance and shields?

Yes that's an option, if they end up too powerful, we can drop 1 or 2 points of melee. Not too much however, since the ranged units tend to have high resist : if the spiders don't have the melee to at least overcome a priest's or magician's shields then it's again worthless.

Gorgons don't to me at least look much like minotaurs at all. Gorgons are already a pretty tough unit to kill defensively.

Look at the summoning animation, not the unit in combat. They're flying bulls.

[namad]

Again, only if they can survive the first turn, in which those units will shoot at them. At only 3 armor, they would take too much damage to be effective, since the defenders get the first turn and kill too many spiders before they use web. Don't forget that magicians, slingers, even heroes hit quite hard. If spiders are killed from 2 hits or one, they most likely lose the 9v9 battle, if 3 they win.

Yes I agree, I think giant spiders absolutely need 5 defense against ranged attacks, I just thought that 3+large shield might work alright for that. Also I was suggesting adding first strike on top of all that (for a cost increase back above 90). That is if you want giant spiders to more closely resemble cavalry. The giant spiders are a vaguely horse shaped sprite. In this hypothetical they also had quick casting. If you can't give them large shield, I think it'll be fine to leave them at 5 regular defense no first strike no quick casting. I was just trying to get more creative with abilities and skills. Which might not necessarily be wise of me.

Since those are high resistance units, they'll take minimal damage : spiders at 6 swords aren't more powerful than a typical halberdier without levels, but the spiders never gain any.

Yes. That was what I meant. Giant spiders are bad against dwarves. Which I think is okay. Weakness to dwarves can remain a key feature while you continue making them stronger against everything else?

[Seravy]

Unfortunately, Quick Casting has no effect on the AI's use of the Web Spell ability, since it bypasses normal spellcasting procedures and is done directly. For the same reason Counter Magic doesn't work if the AI uses unit abilities like that either. It only works for Caster X.
So the AI will be less efficient at using spiders, no way around it.