Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

[Twinkletoes89]

Oh don't get me wrong, I am not advocating a free pass on the racism, it just sucks all the oxygen out of every debate with Leavers because they take great offense at it. It is a stain on our national discourse now.

Let's see if any reasonable arguments appear at any point, but given the central planks of the leave campaign are complete bunkum, I won't hold my breath

[Cyneheard]

Oh don't get me wrong, I am not advocating a free pass on the racism, it just sucks all the oxygen out of every debate with Leavers because they take great offense at it. It is a stain on our national discourse now.

This is nothing new - we run into this issue in the US when talking to Trump supporters.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

I feel that this vote will allow Europe to go the way it needs to without a partner that kinda doesn't want to be there, kicking, screaming and preventing the change needed. The EU needs to drastically change to survive, and I don't think it is capable of this currently.

As a vehement remain supporter and believer in a fully federalized Europe (that includes the UK), this is basically the only reason for supporting Brexit that I respect, because it represents a difference in ideology, not a disagreement over policy, something which so often in politics ends up being completely divorced from the facts or data.

But I want to ask you how you feel about the outpouring of racist acts and violence that the referendum result precipitated?

I do not think that everyone, or even many, of the leave voters are racist or condone these acts. But the racist and nationalist minority in the UK have been emboldened by this result, they feel their beliefs have been legitimized, and so they are acting much more openly than before. Do you think it was worth siding with such people to achieve victory in this referendum?

FWIW this is not a criticism or attack, I really am curious how reasonable leave supporters feel about this issue.

U.K. Would never accept a fully federal Europe. I doubt we could ever bring ourselves into the euro unless it was hugely beneficial. Europe could have kept us if they had wanted, it would have required limits on movement or sovereignty. Just 1 would have been enough to sway the vote.

But I still think this is the best for all of us. Europe will be done for without federalism.

There have been a few extra attacks but the actual absolute numbers increased are minimal. They get more attention due to the narrative the papers want. It is sad, but these things embolden idiots.

But everyone has a right to a viewpoint, and I do not believe in shutting down opinions but rather engaging them in open debate (the 'safe space' movement is a huge bugbear of mine)

[darrelljs]

On a slightly more serious note, how's Greece doing?

Ticking away.

Kudos (or rather cheers) to a civilized (err, civilised) discussion on such a difficult topic...exhibit A on why I still come here.

REM, you might very well be right, but I doubt most people who voted to Leave were as thoughtful.

Darrell

[ipecac]

Darrell: on one side, fear. On the other side...more fear.

When were the masses ever thoughtful?

[SevenSpirits]

I think it's easy to fixate on the bad arguments that your political opponents are making while dismissing the ones your own side makes. I've mostly given up on using the presence of bad arguments to determine if a political position is bad, because they're just everywhere. What matters IMO are the strongest arguments from each side.

[Bobchillingworth]

When were the masses ever thoughtful?

If only there were some class of professionals who devote their time to mastering specialized bodies of information! Ah, how useful their advice would have been for the general public in advance of a highly complex & technical referendum with tremendous implications.

[AdrienIer]

When were the masses ever thoughtful?

If only there were some class of professionals who devote their time to mastering specialized bodies of information! Ah, how useful their advice would have been for the general public in advance of a highly complex & technical referendum with tremendous implications.

"People in this country have had enough of experts" Michael Gove

[Jkaen]

I dont think this second referendum will happen, nor do I get why people think there will be a new general election on the back of this, why would the conservatives hand over 3 years of power of their own free will?

Do you mean a second Scottish referendum? Genuinely curious to hear why not, as this is my biggest anxiety.

People are saying that since it was so close and that lots of leave voters were 'tricked' into voting we should hold the brexit referendum again, there is a petition with a couple of million signatures on it to that end. Cant see that one happening.

The scottish referendum is a different thing, I can possibly see that happening down the line when the terms of the split are a bit more established so they actually know what they are voting between

[Jkaen]

I voted to stay in, but a lot of people fell for the arguments of leave, the main weird one being to ignore experts as they dont know anything (with almost everybody saying leave would hurt the economy)

Did they fall for the arguments, or did they react against the visceral hatred the experts had for them? You can be correct on all the facts but if someone senses you hold him in utter contempt good luck swaying him.

The massive panning of democracy and universal suffrage I keep reading about as a reaction to these populist revolts warms the dark cockles of my reactionary heart.

Bit of both to be honest, the remain campaign was badly ran