RBP3 - [SPOILERS] - Team DIM (Mehmed of HRE)

[meatbalz]

i'm prob making a fool out of myself here without the game but i think it's 85g?

edit: also, that's why i was referring to NAP renegotiations w/ france (re: axeman vs spear)

warrior -> axe OR spear = 80g

how about we build an axe and keep the 80g to upgrade the warrior in midas to a spear? same cost, but axe is always useful, spear only more useful than axe if france attacks.


edit 2:

here's the full reference material: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads....le&id=2499

ilios, it seems you're really worried about france so ok let's go for the spear. we're stressed enough as it is with all the diplo, micro etc

[Ilios]

NAP's aren't foolproof, I really want a counter unit in our currently most exposed city.

Edit: wow 85g, that's a lot... I wonder if the upgrade cost is dependent on difficulty level/world size,... let me find out...

Edit 2: it's 80gold and dependent on game speed (check this very good chart http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads....le&id=2499)

[novice]

this was never answered. i believe the only rule governing overflow is it's limited to the hammer value of the previous build, so if you've got overflow hammers from a granary the max is 60, from a warrior 15, etc. which would mean the 39 hammers would get us both the chariot + flow into the next build as 39<60

as this is a straightforward game mechanics question and non-spolierish, could any lurkers enlighten us?

That's correct. In your example, you get 39 hammers overflow from the worker, and you can put that into a 30 hammer chariot and get 9+whatever your production is overflow into the next build.

If you chose instead to let the 39 hammers overflow into a 15 hammer warrior, you would not get 24 + prod hammer overflow from that, it would be limited to 15 hammers overflow from the warrior, and the remainder is supposed to be converted to gold (but will in fact be lost, due to a bug in the latest patch, according to some).

EDIT: So the rule of thumb is, never let your number of hammers invested at eot exceed twice the cost of what you're currently building.

[meatbalz]

thanks novice, much appreciated

edit on diplo: just got this from india

Hi guys,

Even though there's not a whole lot that we are able to do in that theater, we just wanted to say that we're with you and we will be keeping our ears open. Additionally, once I get a sec to comb through the C&D info that ruff sent, I will let you know what we find out about the Incan power.

We also wanted to let you know that we may be doing the Exploit "Choke to delay Alpha" on our own, since Rome seems to want to wait for Praets and Portugal doesn't seem to have horses. So we may not be able to provide an expensive tech next round, but hopefully our military contributions will be seen as having value as well. Just wanted to keep you guys updated and PARTY ON!

DJ Civ

(bold/italics mine) errr.... what? egypt's plan was always half-assed, "yeah let's go after sumeria w/ 3 teams, i'm sure rome will be on board, portugal too even though they have 4 cities and must have an economy in the tank"... he might be trying to do too much here, or he just hates sumeria enough to throw all the "allies" into the shredder. we have to be very wary of him trying to do the same to us (he's already tried w/ france but that's too transparent to work, we'll attack france on our terms not his)

anyway, that's another civ as well as us who will skip an expensive tech. given the tech rate in this game and the fact the strongest civs seem to be the ones who WON'T be doing the research, when exactly are we planning on receiving these "expensive" techs? T100??? we should approach egypt and ask whether he wants some help with coordination, because it looks like the whole aim of his plan (getting expensive techs early) is being threatened by poor planning & overly rapid expansion from other civs. not that the plan is poorly thought out - it's very smart, no less than you'd expect from krill. but there's a lot of MM that goes along with it, and at the moment i don't think he has the time or inclination to make sure things are done properly.



also: pizarro is right on inca's borders along with ruff's warrior. ilios has all along intended to take a hard-nosed stance and try to intimidate inca so let's see whether that bears fruit. aztecs expect a declaration and inca hasn't moved yet.

[Ilios]

Yes Meatbalz, we might have to lean on India to have them concentrate on teching and maybe sending over a unit or two to defend Aztec. I does seem that India have some sort of grudge against Exploit, I plan to find out in any case.

Yesterday was another intensive round of diplomacy, which resulted the addition of both England and Carthage to our Cartel.
I'll post some of the more interesting chats (leaving out most of the banter):

England (Haphazard1):

Subject: Exploit's exploits and the Tech Cartel

11:32 PM me: hi
11:33 PM Haphazard1,: hi
me: just reverified our C&D
Haphazard1,: hmmm
me: Krill was right
Exploit discovered Pottery
Haphazard1,:
so we are good
me: did you guys manage to come to a decision?
11:36 PM Haphazard1,: We've talked about it but we are all at work. Remind me again what part of the agreement you guys were asking about?
11:40 PM Haphazard1,: I think we were pretty much set to join you guys if Krill can get Oracle. This is not 100% official but we will probably go with your Cartel.
me: good to hear
Haphazard1,: Who is in this again? I can't check our international relations post right now
me: welcome aboard
11:41 PM Portugal/India/Egypt/Ottomans/Aztec/HRE/Carthage/England
Haphazard1,: Wow, that is quite a big group you have tehre
11:42 PM me: we need to if we want to face the other alliances
11:43 PM Haphazard1,: That is a full 1/2 of the civs
11:44 PM impressive, that must be all 8 civs surrounding Krill
me: yes, safety in numbers
11:45 PM he's actually on the outer border of the Cartel
Haphazard1,: Where is he, we were going to look for him
I heard NW
11:46 PM me: he's west of carthage, but has a unit coming from Richard's NW
Haphazard1,: Oh, I see.
11:47 PM By the way what's up with France?
11:48 PM It seems you are the only team we know of that's met them
me: aren't we lucky...
yeah they haven't met any other team we know so far
and we're up to 9
Haphazard1,: Babylon to the South is trying to get to them and we are headed there
Haphazard1,: cya
good luck partner
me: i'll try to figure out for you guys to meet up with Krill
11:57 PM Haphazard1,: We appreciate it
11:58 PM LEt us know if you guys need anything
like meeting babylon
me: we'll probably be sending you a full world map soon
Haphazard1,: I like screenshot trading on
11:59 PM me: actually i meant the teams related to each other on the map
but screenies can be traded as well
Haphazard1,: Much easier for use to coordinate rolling over France
12:00 AM me: i hear ya
Haphazard1,: Anyway, thanks for the chat
I'll see you later
12:01 AM me: same here, later man

Ottomans:

Subject: Getting Carthage in the Cartel

11:36 PM me: any news from Carthage?
11:39 PM Ottoman: not yet
altough we can't expect them to make aquick desicion about this
11:40 PM me: have they met other teams yet?
Ottoman: I don't think so
we have an iformaton agreent about meeting othr team
and they have only told us about your team so far
11:41 PM me: maybe we should spill the beans and explain the plan
11:42 PM Ottoman: i only sent it some 12 hours ago
i said that i needed a response by end of t56
me: yeah, but once we give them the plan
maybe we can double team
11:43 PM Ottoman: me & you?
me: yes
but we'll wait till next turn
11:44 PM could you let us know as quickly as possible whether you got an answer?
11:45 PM Ottoman: sure
me: thanks

Ottoman: np
11:46 PM oh, and krill has got me into a chat about carthage too
me: good
Ottoman: like, right now
me: they and england need to meet asap
11:48 PM Ottoman: krill suggests that they meet around a specific tile
me: i got a screenshot from carthage
11:50 PM i'm sending it over so you can coordinate with Krill
Ottoman: ok
11:52 PM thx although krill might be closer than that to them
me: send it over to krill then mabe
Ottoman: he doesn't know much about that area
11:53 PM me: ok then you will probably need to coordinate
meet up with krill and india, then send them north to meet up with you
11:54 PM Ottoman: is this about england?
me: carthage
11:55 PM england as well i suppose
Ottoman: they know us already
me: oh yeah sorry man
12:09 AM Ottoman: carthage reports they just met mali last turn
12:10 AM me: i think we need to give them the plan now
let me check with krill
12:11 AM Ottoman: well, if they are already on the other side, then there i little point giving free info to them
me: they just met mali
krill says to tell em
Ottoman: tell them what, the plan on our side?
me: yeah
12:12 AM i'll give it a shot now

Carthage (Mr Nice Guy):


Subject: Tech Cartel and Krill meet-up

note: I had asked Carthage for a screenshot to send over to Krill, which we didn't need in the end, because Krill's warrior is only 3-4 tiles removed from Carthage's northwestern border.

11:47 PM me: hehe
didn't see you guys were online
thanks for the screenshot
11:50 PM Pacal: No problem. Does that give enough context to be helpful?
11:51 PM me: yes
you will probably need to move to the west of that lake
11:53 PM Pacal: our land is to the west. if they are to the west of the lake, it might be faster to have them meet us where A4 met us... if you are familiar with that area
11:57 PM me: hmm
11:58 PM let me check ingame for a sec
11:59 PM Pacal: okay. I will be afk back and forth for the next few minutes...
me: ok
12:03 AM ok
12:04 AM Krills unit is around 12 tiles west from the peak to the north from where we met you
the peak is just north of a corn tile
12:06 AM Pacal: Okay. If he heads east about 3 or 4 tiles he will find our borders.
12:07 AM me: great thanks
12:10 AM Pacal: I must be heading off to handle real life. but will talk to you again soon.
12:11 AM me: i don't know if ottomans sent you a message
about our tech cartel
12:12 AM i know you're in a hurry, but i'd like to share the plan
Pacal: They did. I have posted it in our team thread but Shoot the Moon and I haven't had a chance to discuss
12:13 AM me: no need decide now
i'd just ask to keep it confidential
Pacal: Of course
me: Krill will land Oracle on T62
Pacal: Holy cow
me: he'll take Alphabet
12:14 AM we then share around the cheap techs
Pacal: We all knew Krill was good but defeating Lobo and then landing Oracle.. wow.
What techs are not accounted for?
me: if you're in
you need to start saving gold
12:15 AM Pacal: So our role would be financiers?
me: no
that way you can research at 100% science when you start your tech
12:16 AM no sense in researching the cheap techs
Pacal: Gotcha.
me: you're member #8
Pacal: oh wow, I only knew of 5 other members.
12:17 AM me: Portugal/India/Egypt/Aztec/Ottomans/HRE/England and you
safety in numbers
12:18 AM we'll have a significant advantage over the other team
*teams
Pacal: Wow. you've given me a lot to think about. I really have to go now but will share this with Shoot the Moon so that we can respond quickly
me: good
don't wait too long
12:19 AM and you need to meet the other members asap
so if you have a chariot you can spare, i'd say move him north
12:20 AM thanks for your time
Pacal: So north is the critical direction. gotcha. thank you Mehmed.. be talking to you later.
me: later

Five hours later, we got this from Carthage:

Good evening,

Team Nice Shot hopes this note finds your team well. We have discussed the tech trading alliance and we see it in the best interest of all parties for our team to participate. As a further gesture of goodwill, our team would like to enter into a formal non-aggression pact with your team to last 30 turns, until T85.

All of that having been said, we do have more questions about the TT alliance. We understand that we may need to discuss with more members before we get a clearer picture, and are working on that, but want to build strong ties with you and A4 while we have the opportunity. So our questions:

*Post-alphabet, who is researching what?
*Does this alliance include any type of mutual NAP/defensive pact/ or is it just a tech trading alliance? (especially important with the DOW against Ruff)
*Are we making any effort at this point to even out beakers?

Also, we should be able to meet Krill in 2-3 turns depending on exact timing. It sounds like we will meet England around the same time. The hope is that by T62, we will have made the full round of contacts so that alliance communication can be easier. We are devoting as many resources as possible to this effort.

Talk to you soon,

Mr. Nice Guy of Team Nice Shot

--
Pacal II of the Carthage

We should accept their NAP proposal (BTW could we maybe put the current NAPs and their expiry dates on the first page somewhere?). I'll send them a message back welcoming them to the Cartel, and answering some of their questions.

[meatbalz]

yup, india will need to be leaned on, no doubt. i think what we need to do is sim out a start similar to ours and work out what our economy looks like with 4 cities, the same tiles hooked up (gold etc) and a couple of riverside cottages. we certainly have enough gold to get HBR @ 100% with plenty to spare but i'd like to see what our finances look like 20 turns down the road when HBR completes. i'm not sure i'll have time to do this today


diplo thoughts:

i think we're in a very strong bargaining position as far as naming our next tech. it really doesn't look like most teams have the rsch to knock out those "expensive" techs quickly. the main obstacle to us choosing CoL and rsching it at a leisurely pace is egypt; we need to, not lean on him, but point out we're acting intelligently and moving with the interest of the Cartel in mind rather than just ours.

egypt doesn't know about the Alliance (and it looks like Carthage at the very least also wants in). i think if you asked egypt and india at the moment they would say we're the ones they want to work with. we need to leverage that - particularly with egypt as at the moment it is NOT in our plans to work with him long term. i'm sure egypt is immensely frustrated by the whole coordination effort, and i'm equally sure our ability to knock out HBR while everyone else has driven their economies into the ground elevates us in his eyes. i think this will make him willing to work with us, particularly when we send him a nice email saying HBR is being rschd at 100%, ETA x turns.

i'm not sure we can coax him into giving up confucianism - again, i've been convinced all along he wants to run the tables on religions + control which ones spread and which don't - but i do believe that being a smart guy he'll see that the upside in letting us have it outweighs the downside. he may well find himself painted into a corner on it. have we tried to gather any diplo support for our position? i still believe it's a good idea, although not as pressing as when i thought we were required to rsch an "expensive" tech to uphold our end of the bargain.

also, let's consider what he's rsching - writing, for alphabet. meaning he can't even start mono until the oracle is built on T62. so we MAY be able to beat him to it outright.

more generally, i'm somewhat concerned by how the alliance is shaping up in terms of expensive techs, i.e. 1 of the 8 might not be around and 3 of the 8 (us india egypt) seem like they won't rsch "expensive techs". so if we were to say to the other 5 teams hey guys, egypt and india might not pull their weight in terms of teching but we want the alliance to succeed, we'll rsch CoL and trade it to you, that'll make us the good guys in the eyes of portugal/carthage/england/ottomans/aztec.


i'm going to do a very rough ballpark estimate of what our empire will look like when HBR is rschd from an economic perspective.



edited to add because there's SO much happening:
1) ilios i know the above is stream-of-consciousness but i hope it conveys my thoughts at least kind of clearly
2) great great news carthage outright says they want to work with us and ottomans
3) what's the situation with inca, that's a concern. i know we're being aggressive, but i don't have access so have no idea what's going on? have we also declared on them, because if so we need to keep to the first half of the timer + coordinate with aztec and ottomans.

[meatbalz]

VERY very rough first stab at a CoL ETA

assume:
~110 starting gold
T56-T57 -2 upkeep/turn = 04 total
T58-T68 -4 upkeep/turn = 44 total
T69-T70 -8 upkeep/turn = 16 total



DIM @ T70

size 4

centre tile 2/1/1
sheep 4/1/2
wheat 4/1/0
grass hill mine 1/3/1
cottage 2/0/2


Midas

size 4

centre tile 2/1/1
gold 1/2/7
corn 6/0/1
copper 1/5/1
cottage 2/0/2


Horse City

size 3

centre tile 2/1/1
sheep 4/1/2
wheat 4/1/0
horse 2/3/2


Marble City

size 1

centre tile 2/1/1
marble 2/3/3


Total rsch @ 100%

+1 from having a city
+8 from palace
+3 from connecting cities and/or trade routes
+6 from tiles @ DIM
+12 from tiles @ midas
+5 from tiles @ horse city
+4 from tiles @ marble city

= ~ 40 total

CoL = 630 total beakers
Our per turn beaker contribution @ 100% ~ (40 x 1.2) = 48 beakers
Turns required = 630/48 = ~14 turns
Cash requirement = 14 * 8 = 112g
2 turns cash + 14 turns @ 100% = ~16 turns

Rough ETA for CoL = T85

[Ilios]

I follow your stream-of-consciousness fully MB.

I will prepare a draft to send over to India and see what they reply.

Re CoL, like I said before, we'll be in a pretty good position to get it once we finish HBR. I don't think we need to bother Krill more about at the moment, let's see how the game evolves. Thanks for giving us an idea on where we'll be in 15 turns.

I agree that diplomatically, we are in a very good position, with many of the Cartel members joining because of our hard work. They will look to us for guidance. I'm thinking that we shouldn't tie ourselves too much to India and Azteca. Azteca will be seriously crippled in the short term, and with India hellbent on eradicating Exploit, there will not be much help coming from that side as well.
Therefore, I would prefer to work closely with Ottomans ofcourse, and add both Carthage and England to our inner alliance. This doesn't mean we will be cutting our ties with Aztec and India, but in the long term, I think it is in our interest to form an alliance with Ottomans/Carthage/England. We are all relatively new to MP, and I think we can convince them that it is in their interest as well to join forces. Geographically, this Alliance would make more sense, as we'd form a solid block, with Ottomans to Carthage's north, and HRE to England's north.
We shouldn't approach them initially, but I'd like to broach the subject with Ottomans when we have the chance.

[Ilios]

Here's the message i sent back to Carthage:

To the leaders of mighty Carthage,


On behalf of the Tech Cartel, it is our great pleasure to welcome you aboard. We happily agree to your formal NAP until T85.

The tech path of each member is not decided yet. I can tell you that we are currently researching Horseback Riding, because we are the strongest researchers at the moment. This will allow our Cartel to gain access to this critical Military Technology at a very early stage of the game, giving us a significant advantage against nations outside of the Cartel.

It is our understanding that NAP will be formally signed once Alphabet comes in and every member has met. This doesn't mean you cannot already initiate these pacts yourselves on a team to team basis (as you just did with us).

We will not allow outside forces to dictate their terms to a Cartel member or wage war on a Cartel member. However, at this early stage of the game, I believe it would be better if the Cartel members work together on a regional basis initially (England and Carthage for example). Considering the distances involved, I believe that would be sensible. (at the moment, it would make no sense for Carthage and England to send troops to aid Azteca)

Krill will fully explain you the details of the plan once you meet with him.

On a side note, you must have met England this turn. We would appreciate if you could direct their warrior towards Krill's unit.


Highest Regards,


Ilios - DIM

And a message to France proposing an extension of the NAP to run till turn 81:

To the leaders of France,


We haven't heard from you in a while, and with several other teams looking to meet you, I'm sending you this message.

I think our NAP expires in 5 turns, and I seem to remember you'd like a heads up five turns before. If you'd like, we can extend the NAP for another 20 turns, to run until T81.

Have you met any other teams so far?


Highest regards,


Ilios - DIM

[Ilios]

Message to India, with Ruff and A4 copied:

Subject: India's Exploit fixation

DJ,


I am thinking that Rome is colluding with Exploit, and feeding them information on the Cartel's intentions, both tech wise and military.

It seems unlikely that Portugal, with 4 cities out already, and creative to boot, still doesn't have access to Horse. Do you know if they have a unit coming our way so we can lean on them as well?

Anyway, with both Portugal and Rome leaving you to take on Exploit, I was wondering if it wouldn't be a better idea to wait until horse archers come online and the dust has settled around the Inca question.

Frankly, I'm not sure why Exploit is such a priority for India, and from our point of view, it would make more sense to acquire a technological advantage and then taking him out.

Could you maybe give us your reasoning, so we could fill in the newer Cartel member why you will not be able to contribute an expensive tech next round?


Highest regards,


Ilios - DIM