RBP3 IT Office - Email and technical issues

[sunrise089]

DJCiv has completed our moves for T68.

[sunrise089]

DJCivilization has declared war on Tech of Sumeria. We are continuing to move in the first half of the turn so both our wars are in the same part of the turn split.

[Exploit]

DJCivilization has declared war on Tech of Sumeria. We are continuing to move in the first half of the turn so both our wars are in the same part of the turn split.

I object to DJ Civilization claiming the first half of the turn. It allows DJ Civilization a double move on me. They did not go before me last turn as per the rules on the attacker claiming the first half therefore they should get the second half of the turn.

If they wish to have their multiple wars on the same half of the turn then I suggest that they make arrangements with the Maya to swap turn order.

I am using my pause to resolve this matter.

[sunrise089]

I object to DJ Civilization claiming the first half of the turn. It allows DJ Civilization a double move on me. They did not go before me last turn as per the rules on the attacker claiming the first half therefore they should get the second half of the turn.

If they wish to have their multiple wars on the same half of the turn then I suggest that they make arrangements with the Maya to swap turn order.

I am using my pause to resolve this matter.

This is wrong on several counts:

1) Exploit logged in AFTER us last turn.

2) The double-move rule does not remotely require the attacking civ to move before the defending civ. It does require us to move in the first half of the turn, which we did.

3) It seems very silly to me to expect us to change halves of the timer (and force Maya to do the same) so that Exploit can...exploit previously unknown knowledge. We don't even WANT the first half of the turn, but it worked out that we needed to take it in the Mayan war and we made the reasonable assumption that we should just stick with our half. Heck, we aren't even ALLOWED to move in the second half of the turn.

4) Our attack consists of a one-move. It makes no difference when we attack or even if we double-move (though we didn't). It DOES make a difference whether the target knows the attack is coming. In this case Expolit logged in after we DOW'd him in the IT office thread. We would like to request a reload to the start of the turn so we can make our moves in the proper order. EDIT: Not the start of the turn, but before either of us logged in.

That said - no need to burn a pause. We're happy to wait for the issue to be resolved and don't want to force a pause out of you for it.

[Mukha]

We are continuing to move in the first half of the turn so both our wars are in the same part of the turn split.

I have a few questions on that.

If a team is declared on in the second half of a turn can that team then declare on a 3rd party and move units involved in that new war in the second half of a turn? If they can't declare or move in the second half of a turn after being involved in a war where they have to move in the first half wouldn't this encourage a lot of strange behaviour like preemptively declaring on a suspected soon to be agressor to claim the second half of a turn? If they can move in both halves with two separate wars, how would this be controlled?

Preemptively declaring with no actual immediate hostile agression intended also has other benefits as it lessens the surprise possible with attacks at EoT and always gurantees at least one whipped defender.

Also, what's to stop a team from never signing peace and keeping one civ stuck with the first half of the turn for the rest of the game or until they are no longer a threat? I don't know the tactical situation in your case but theoretically Maya could have no units in theater and refuse to sign peace preventing you from doing an EoT sneak attack on anyone, either Sumeria or someone later. This even extends to the fact if I have an ally on the opposite side of the world about to be attacked by a neighbour I could declare on that neighbour without repercussion to prevent them sneak attacking my ally.

And another thing! Could a civ preemptively declare war in second half claiming the second half and would this stop a civ from being able to move units in that turn and so forced to wait another turn? This seems really bad faith though and if not explicitly covered by rules (which it very well may be) should be adequately covered by the bad faith rule.

One last thing, can a civ declare with a unit move into rival territory after they have ended turn? Also pretty bad faith IMO.

I guess one possible option to fix the need to declare in the second half of the turn is to always allow reactive movements on the turn of declaration say by disallowing a declaration in the last hour of a turn or waiting at least an hour before ending turn if the team is the last to play. I personally don't like this option at all though, as the defender already has far too many advantages and why I think allowing double moves is actually the balanced option.

[Cyneheard]

Timeline of events: (All times are EDT; Civstats or forum times where appropriate)

Exploit:
T68:
Logged in 2352, March 14th.
Ended Turn 0002, March 15th.

T69:
Posted 2218, March 15th, Re: India's war declaration
2218: Logged into the game
2220: Finished turn

India:
T68:
Logged in 2345, March 14th
Logged out 2353
March 15th: Posted 1328 that their moved were completed for T68
Logged in 1337, ended turn 1338. Logged out 1340.

T69:
Posted in-thread 2208 about the war declaration.
Logged in 2220. Logged out 2245.

Exploit, ending turn while the rules dispute is still ongoing is not acting in good faith IMO.

[sunrise089]

Thanks Cyneheard, but please note Exploit also logged in again after we moved during T68. We had no opportunity to sneak anything past him.

[Cyneheard]

I wasn't going to assume that your first login was the only time you moved units, but, yes, your first login was clearly before Exploit's move on T68.

[Ruff_Hi]

assuming cyneheard's times are correct, then India finished their turn (their post in the thread is an EOT indicator) before Exploit on T68 and logged in / declare before Exploit on T69. From my reading of the rules, they are the attacker and they have done everything they need to claim the first half of the turn.

Poll 15: Dividing Wartime Turn Splits -
*Attacker's choice (attacker chooses when to declare, defender get opposite half of the turn)

Poll 16: Permitted Actions During Wartime Turn Splits -
*All non-unit actions allowed - No moving units, promoting units, upgrading units, or drafting units, aka the Apolyton demogame rule

Poll 28: Double-move Rule -
Modified RBP2 double-move rule
(e) - Upon declaring war, ... the attacker has to have (secretly) followed the turn split rule the turn before the declaration of war if they wish to be able to move first during the war.

If Exploit finished his turn then it looks like he broke Rule 16 (unless he didn't move any units, including executing worker actions).

India
India's post about ending their T68 occurred at March 15th, 2010, 13:28 (so they effectively finished their turn at 3/14 11:53pm)
India's post about declaring war on T69 occurred at March 15th, 2010, 22:08


Exploit

[scooter]

Wait can we get a clarification - from what it looks like, on T68 India logged in first, but Exploit ended turn first. Also, Exploit ended turn before India posted on here that they were done with all moves. Is that correct or am I wrong? Or is that irrelevant?