RBP3 [SPOILERS] Team Nice Shot - Pacal of Carthage

[Shoot the Moon]

Considering at least 4 teams have to log in to end turn (and that slows down the clock), it might just possibly get delayed that long. Hard to tell though. Probably better to just move it out of the city to play it safe.

[Shoot the Moon]

Are you planning to move the warrior tonight? Although it would be nice to be able to hear back from Krill, I don't see us as having the option NOT to move it and risk the turn rolling over, so I think if we can't get a hold of someone soon we should probably just move it.

Any lurker know the game mechanics?

[Shoot the Moon]

Ok, nevermind. I wound up firing up a test pitboss game, and it works as we have assumed (build completes first). If you don't get to it, I'll log in later tonight and move the warrior.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Warrior moved, turn ended. Now for a long overdue T74...

[Shoot the Moon]

Weird how the warrior next to our city attacked the warrior...

Odd that we haven't heard back from Krill yet.

Btw, I switched Carthage over to work the hamlet instead of the cottage. There is really no advantage to working worse tiles now. That one will get worked in two turns when we grow. I'd rather have 2 commerce now than 2 commerce later.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Well, the barbarian threat is subsided. The city-threatening barb attacked the warrior and died, and the other moved closer to our territory. So I moved the chariot toward the southern barb, with the intention of attacking it with better odds next turn. Then moved the northern guard back toward the city to make sure we don't have any unahppiness issues from lack of garrison.

In the realm of scouting, it was just a matter of following roads, nothing major new learned this turn, although we did gain visibility on DIM's aptly named capital, DIM.

The only other news of the turn is that we turned research back to 100%. We are at 177 gold (-22gpt), making 62 bpt. At this rate, construction will take 8 turns, although we may be able to shave a turn off by growing into cottages/fur/silver.

[Shoot the Moon]

FYI, important chat with England going on.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I simply can't wait for France to go down. I'll hate the point when we have to turn on A4 and HRE, as those have been two of the best teams to work with. But it has to happen.

[Shoot the Moon]

Very long, and important chat with England. If any of the lurkers want a summary, let me know, otherwise here it is in its entirety (god that took forever to reformat):

Sury: well, next turn is the turn

Me: nice

Sury: France is the rival worst power
this is going to be fun times.

me: thankfully, diplo with France has gone pretty quiet since the screenshot exchange

Sury: yeah

me: diplo wise, the pause was terrible timing
trying to stall France from math

Sury: I think they figured it out

me: yeah, I suspect so

Sury: they started retreating their warrior
near our territory

me: hope the screenshots help, by the way

Sury: oh, they do
nice to not be going in blind
we didn't know where Orleans was

me: and we gave them almost no map info to our east

Sury: heh

me: lol

Sury: we're getting settled at from everybody
without France's death
we'd be stuck with far too few city spots

me: yeah

Sury: like, we're not going to have room
for 4 rows of cities
there's parallel with London
parallel with our newest city
and parallel with AF and BR
that's basically it
so, it's a good thing
we can spread east

me: off the top of my head, I think we have 3 quality spots and then 2 or 3 more filler spots left

Sury: you've got the corn/wine as a quality spot

me: yeah, that's one

Sury: assuming we can put up defenses, the sheep/wine is our next city

me: we've got a grassland pigs that has a fair amount of hills
that will be nice for production

Sury: London has like all of our hills
it'll get to 20 base hammers
off of grass hills

me: ours could be, but not enough food unless we farm
only two plains sheep

Sury: yuck
wet rice + plains sheep

me: although 6 river-side grassland
so slow growth, but good commerce eventually

Sury: we've got 3 river GHMs
and 3-4 river grass
so, yeah, HR it up

me: I think that is comparable to what we would have gotten if we had settled in place

Sury: to size 10-12

me: yeah

Sury: If we can also burn Orleans
then we should be able to maintain 100% research

me: actually, with silver, furs, gold, and potentially a religion, we don't even need HR that badly yet

Sury: Our silver isn't up yet
we badly need HR

me: neither is ours, but 4 turns I think

Sury: all three of our early cities
are at their caps

me: ah

Sury: including whips
which will vanish eventually

me: all of ours got whipped recently, and will grow back to their caps

Sury: well, we have yet to do a 3-pop whip
only thing we could do is a settler

me: the limiting for us actually isn't the happy cap but having good tiles to grow into at this point
*limiting factor

Sury: only BR has that problem
heck, AF has a library
it's working scientists
as able

me: early GS?

Sury: If it's available, we'll bulb Philo with him
don't tell anyone
except Krill
since he knows

me: ofc
our lips are sealed

Sury: probably T95 or so
we really want a religion

me: ah
we're hoping to get one from Krill

Sury: stock exchange later
have someone besides Krill
able to manage religions

me: yeah
Sury: he can't spread all of his

me: true
the shrine income would be ridiculous on this map too

Sury: aye
especially @ 3.15 for us
instead of 3.00 for others

me: yeah
playing with 17 teams is strange

Sury: since Krill's the only Philo team

me: tech pace has been insane

Sury: and he won't make a GSci for Philo
it's only going to get worse
me: yeah

Sury: we think we've got good odds
of picking up Philo & Taoism
it's a little expensive
for someone to research by then
especially since it requires COL
or Drama
neither of which would be around until T85 at the earliest

me: well, you'd also know ahead of time if any CAN is going for it

Sury: except CAN's doomed to collapse

me: yeah
have you heard anything on setups diplo wise after CAN collapse?

Sury: well, 6 teams on our end is easy
us, you, Krill
Babs, Mali, Maya
but we'd want someone else
otherwise it's 8v6
and even with the weak Rome, Aztec, and Inca
that's still trouble

me: yeah

Sury: especially long-term
India: Forget it.
me: I think the key to this game is going to be staying a step ahead of the diplo break-ups to be on the larger side

Sury: aye
Options:
Ottomans
HRE
Byz
Portugal would be tough
me: India?

Sury: Not a chance
I don't see India teaming with people who don't neighbor them
they'd get dogpiled and crushed
they need time to build
and grow

me: true

Sury: Byz is actually plausible
if they don't mind working with Krill
we could even add Inca and Rome
and not care if they die
setting them up as lambs to the slaughter
leaves it 7v5
France is so toast.

me: Nice

Sury: No one who's rival worst in power
can survive a 3v1

me: lol

Sury: they're probably at 20k in units.
We have 20k sitting 1 move from Lyons

me: not many can survive a 3v1 at this point in time anyway

Sury: honestly? We'd have a chance, I think, if we got our chariots back
Intact

me: at least not to the point of ever being relevant again

Sury: true
but we could crush an invading army

me: yeah, but the whipping it would take would badly set someone back this early

Sury: or two
with HR coming in?
it would still hurt
but 5XP HAs
will get their kills in

me: it would hurt when other teams are expanding to 5 or 6 cities

Sury: true
that's going to be our difficulty

me: I think it would depend on who your allies are

Sury: getting to 6 in a reasonable time
me: if your in France's situation and soon to get locked out of tech

Sury: right

me: it would be bad

Sury: if HRE and Ottos came at us, though
we could hold without too much trouble

me: if you've still got allies feeding tech while you recover it could be doable

Sury: we might lose the sheep-wines
if that had been settled
a few Numids from you for spear work

me: and catapult flanking

Sury: our mounted stack
leave the catas to us

me:

Sury: we'll have 4HAs
and 6 chariots
by EOT80
- France casualties
and not counting Conan
who's down near Mali
trying to get Aztec contact
if they return our message

me: contacting everyone has been a challenge

Sury: well, we're only short 2
Gulliver got lucky
and stumbled across Sumeria

me: we still need to get Byz so they can get math to start currency

Sury: and Inca
Babs
you mean
me: blah
yes, babs

Sury: do you have anyone available?
They don't.

me: We're heading through Krill's land to them

Sury: Geez.
That's going to take forever

me: only a warrior though, unfortunately

Sury: unless they have a scout near.
woody ii, right?

me: I'd have to check in with Mr. Nice Guy (being away for a week and all), but I believe the word from them was south through Krill then west would be fastest)
not yet, unfortunately

Sury: it would be
but it's not fast

me: yeah
Sury: they're past France
that's really not good
that it's taking so long

me: agreed

Sury: they don't have horses yet
so there's only so much they can do

me: yeah
and we only just got our first horse units out
but they've been tied up on barb duty
just thinking outloud, but the other thing to consider with the next diplo break down is to consider when to spring it

Sury: yuck, barbs
right, I think
it'll happen when Krill lightbulbs COL

me: in terms of not gifting a key tech

Sury: well, Monarchy is owed
to at least Ottos and HRE

me: yeah

Sury: since they gave us IW and HBR
I don't think I want to play hardball with it
me: and we probably owe them construction too, for the same reasons

Sury: and withhold it from Portugal
do you?
You gave math.

me: true

Sury: I would not consider Construction
an obligation

me: but not giving construction migth tip the hand too early

Sury: Krill can lightbulb COL
T85
when's Construction due?

me: t82 currently

Sury: I think holding Construction
is worth it
3t?
Whatever.
Versus...uh...Catapults.

me: subject to go down as we grow into gold mine, silver mine, and furs
true

Sury: I'd talk to Krill
since he's got to do a lot of the split legwork
but, to me
holding Construction
is probably the way to go

me: yeah, if we are looking at the next alliance breakdown in the next 10 turns, we should probably get something moving

Sury: we have
I've talked with Maya
me: well in terms of getting those final members

Sury: need to chat up Babs

me: so we aren't 7v8

Sury: Mali's hard to contact
6v8
North or South

me: huh?
north or south what?

Sury: North: Ottos & HRE
as targets
or south: Byz + possibly Inca/Rome
swallow CANT
basically

me: yeah
we'd probably prefer not being totally surrounded by the next alliance members, although I'm sure we could manage

Sury: we're more flexible

me: so having ottos and HRE as tragets would be appealing

Sury: since we have land to expand to
but, yes
fighting HRE soon
might be needed
HRE's going to be very close to us
touching BFCs
minor overlap

me: and otto's for us is a natural expansion

Sury: those will be tough fights

me: yeah

Sury: more meat grinder
than anything

me: yeah
being up catapults will certainly be nice

Sury: aye

me: but I doubt the advantage will last terribly long

Sury: but nasty mounted forces
from HRE
we'd need a lot of
axes and spears

me: yeah

Sury: to back them up

me: we'd have to consider as an alliance where to aim for in terms of tech following the breakup
we'd be up COL, construction, and currency I assume

Sury: not up COL
for long
HRE's on it
there's been no effort

me: well, militarily that's not a huge deal

Sury: to discuss the 2nd round of techs
CAN is done
it's more the religion
going to Krill
and not them
so, yeah
it just means we won't get CS

me: with deficit research funded by others, getting maces could be a good target

Sury: far ahead of them

me: what is the teching prowess of the others looking like?

Sury: Maya & Babs
can probably both research

me: yeah

Sury: so 3 techers


me: babs has an academy, right?

Sury: 3 funders
yep

me: yeah
what does the teching ability of the like Otto/HRE and whoever else they are with look like though?

Sury: India and Portugal are crap
Aztec as well
those two are their only techers

me: and they won't have currency to be funded

Sury: oh, ouch...
although HRE can get its costs down fast

me: true

Sury: 2 Org Rathauses

me: yeah
but the advantage for us is that if the combat stalls, we'd still be fine
as the teching advantage starts to kick in

Sury: right
first to maces
would be huge

me: and ditto with knights
I know knights seem pretty far off, but at the tech pace we're going at they probably aren't
Sury: no, they aren't far
I wonder if a Machinery lightbulb
off an Engineer
will be worthwhile

me: hmm

Sury: especially if Philo falls through, we might be able to gift you the GSci, and then your first Great Person is an Engineer
T130 or so...
no
too late

me: knights seem like a very logical place to spring a alliance breakdown

Sury: Machinery will be in by then
Knights would
but that's too long

me: yeah

Sury: Byz would be scary

me: byz is overpowered
so glad we're not near them

Sury: the question is...what will they do during that era?

me: the question is do any of their neighbors let them reach that era

Sury: that's one danger
with bringing them on board
their neighbors won't be fighting them

me: yeah
the other possibility of course is to not get them to guilds
make them either self research it

Sury: right, and then they get if from the other side

me: other side won't be anywhere near guilds

Sury: I hope

me: yeah

Sury: but eating our own
instead of letting Byz grow south
argh
Byz doesn't have any near southern neighbors
India's the closest
and there's a ton of room

me: a bit like us with bad land but a bunch of it?
to the south

Sury: south of them
is desert

me: ah
brb

Sury: ok

me: back
btw, small point, but who besides Krill has heard about the next alliance so far (who is it safe to discuss it with, in essence?)

Sury: Maya
I would talk to Babylon
Mali should be fine
only those 6, though
me: ok
of whom we only have contact with Mali >.<

Sury: oh, right...
hm
they are not the most communicative

me: still not sure how maya and us haven't bumped into each other yet...

Sury: they've got a warrior
at our territory
HRE contact
and then you + Ottos
unless you meet them first
somewhere else
me: where shall we move our warrior at london?

Sury: oh, right
SW

me: ok

Sury: wait, he's at London?
no, NW.

me: I believe

Sury: head for Animal Farm
go to London
then NW

me: shall I hope in game to confirm where he is?
*hop

Sury: sure

me: he is on London's center tile

Sury: ok
so head NW

me: ok

Sury: and then probably SW next turn
wait, let me double check
have you moved him this turn?

me: yes

Sury: ok, I'll need to game out
where their warrior will be
NW
and then NW
will get you contact on T76

me: ok, thanks

Sury: oh, I guess MC is due to everyone
nice, but not critical

me: who is researching that?

Sury: Maya

me: would be nice to get that contact then

Sury: yep

me: and I'm sure they'd like math
by the way, would you be willing to relay a message to babylon about where our scouting units are?

Sury: right, on it
let me send Mali's chariot
towards Ottoman territory first

me: we've got one at Krill's SW most city, one at London, and one in HRE land (don't know if they have a unit near any of those)

Sury: ok, I'll tell them
to head north
from Exodus
my guess is once you meet the Maya
head SE
back to London

me: ok, thanks

Sury: so, actually
go W-W
and meet Maya on T76
then head SE

me: or, if they happen to have anything near mali to send to meet near Krill

Sury: Krill'
s opposite side of Mali

me: ok, W-W it is
really?

Sury: oh yeah
Mali's between Maya and Babylon

me: I was under the impression that Mali was to our SW

Sury: SW of us
they're to your SE

me: well, that's what a week away from the game does to you :weed:

Sury: I'm keeping a draft
in gmail
of all the arranged contact setups
to try and keep it all straight

me:
thanks
for all the help with contacts

Sury: not a problem
this switch
is key to our game

me: yeah, same for ours

Sury: if we get about 60 gold
from Lyons and Orleans
we can finish Monarchy T79 or T80
as in, available to trade

me: nice!
and if not something like 81?

Sury: well, if we only get 20g

me: either actually works fine for our happy cap, so it isn't a huge deal for us

Sury: then T82
20g is our expected
from Lyons
which is 100% guaranteed
Orleans would be nice
but we're not sure if we can do that as well
if France is spearless...
and they'll be copperless

me: which is their metal city?

Sury: Lyons

me: nice

Sury: they don't have horses

me: and don't have a military to boot

Sury: nope
wow: Mali has a pigs/corn/iron spot
open

me: I'm jealous of the food

Sury: grass pigs, but dry corn

me: hmm

Sury: it's hardly any weest
of Mali's capital

me: looking in game, I guess we have similar spots, but using the food for a city like that would screw up other dotmaps
Sury: 1 food res
is about the best you can expect
with cities after the 3rd

me: per city
yeah

Sury: AF has pigs + dry wheat
and BR wet wheat + grass sheep
BR...uh...also has furs, stone, and iron
it's pretty good.

me: nice
our cap is the only one with 2 food resources
the dotmap just necessitated breaking up the other possibilities

Sury: that's a shame
we didn't dotmap so thoroughly
but can share foodies if needed

me: bigger shame was missing a food resource because of fog
but it actually worked out alright, as it will allow us to fit in another good city

Sury: yeah, that can happpen

[Mr. Nice Guy]

From the international newswire:

France has lost Lyons. Turns out their only defender was a wounded warrior that could have been promoted. So Lyons was razed quickly. That is likely to spell death to France. I wonder if they will even make it to T80.

I moved the second warrior out of Lakewood as a sentry unit and immediately he encountered a barb warrior. If the warrior engages him in battle, that will turn out to be a smart move, and will hopefully serve to prevent any further serious barb incursions in the area.

What do we want to put the chop at Centralia into? I would assume worker? Or do we want to start pushing NCs out of there?