Turn Discussion Thread

[TheHumanHydra]

Messages with HAK:

HAK: If u can do an update after playing turn that would be great. I'll be able to read it later when I'm not doing the driving.

THH: I didn't get this message till after I played the turn, so I didn't take any screenshots, sorry. There isn't much to report, anyway - I didn't do any build selections or whips, and I moved units according to the pattern you were following. I founded that new city on schedule. Yep, that's about it. I selected Civil Service as we discussed. The main thing is we need to respond to Gillette's offer of covert alliance. I can do the writing, but obviously I should wait for your input before saying anything in so momentous a matter!

HAK: Yes please start writing something up of some sort of agreement. I'll be able to review and become active again tonight after 8pm.

*****

HAK, I set Animal Farm to build a market, which we could consider double-whipping on t131. Hershel's Farm and Chicken Coop both finished their builds at the end of the turn; I think we should chop courthouses in both of them next. I spread Hinduism to the new city so its borders could pop. I left notes as to what I was doing with the workers, mostly cottaging and chopping. The scouts have been locating cities in Gillette's land. I'll draft an affirmative response to Gillette's proposal today; of course, we haven't actually discussed whether we want to respond in the affirmative or not yet!

Hope your trip wasn't too stressful.

Oh, and you wanted me to let you know about new games opening up - they're contemplating one in the general forum right now. All the picks have been finished for the other game we're in; I think we're just waiting on the map, hosting, etc.

[HitAnyKey]

The move halfway across the country is now done...though my condo has nowhere for me to move around in it with all of her boxes/furniture/stuff piled in every single space available. Gonna be fun trying to unpack and organize this stuff over the next few months.

Anyway, just played the turn which allowed me to see how things are shaping up.
First up, since we're nearly finished exploring the Gillette territory (now that we have RoP) I wanted to throw up a few screenshots to show what everything looks like right now, and to show what units they currently have in their capital before our scout moves away. Also included a few from the Troll territory.






Next up are the current demographics:


As I started the turn, I realized that the Chitzen Itza hadn't yet been completed by anyone (though I'm sure Trolls might be close). But also that Hershel's Farm could finish it pretty quick, and we were about to do a chop this turn to add to it. Plus, we'll be able to chop something again in a couple turns, and in 4 turns we'll have our Stone hooked up. So there's a small chance we might actually be able to get the wonder.
Anyway, here's the full list of our cities and their current build items:


Gonna be another busy day today, so going to quickly post this and we can discuss things later.

[TheHumanHydra]

If we're doing Chichen Itza, don't let the workers at Hershel's Farm finish their chop - wait till we have the Stone hooked up.

[TheHumanHydra]

Okay, HAK, if you're able, let's discuss: do we want a secret military alliance with Gillette against the Trolls or not? I vote yes.

[TheHumanHydra]

For posterity, an email exchange between me and HAK:

HAK wrote:

... As for stuff in the turn, if Gillette is really wanting to start that war ASAP and somehow get some some catapults from us, we may want to switch some of our cities from whatever they are currently building to instead build catapults.
I still don't know how we would do this transfer without Trolls knowing. They have a unit in our borders, and would almost definitely move a unit into our borders to watch any fighting that might take place during our war. And that would cause a problem...since they would then see that Gillette isn't moving any units into our borders.
Also, plako has chatted me up multiple times recently to find out if we've gotten our NAP extension with Gillette. I've tried to stall slightly by saying that you had been handling those diplo activities while I was away, but two days ago (before Gillette sent us that message) I did mention that I believed we had gotten our NAP extenstion, but I didn't know for how long. But I tossed in a statement of "I seem to recall that it may have been shorter than I had wanted". He already knows there is war coming, since Gillette will not renew their NAP.

I can maybe post it tonight when I'm home, but here is my chat with plako from Wednesday:

4:36 PM plako.plako: hï
me: Heya
plako.plako: Move happily over?
4:37 PM me: the move part yes. Now will be the unpacking/organizing part.
My condo looks like a storage unit right now. :P
plako.plako: Good luck with that
4:38 PM Did you get NAP with Gillette?
4:39 PM me: I believe so. With the chaos off the move and everything leading up to it, I don't even recall the details anymore. THH was taking the lead there. LOL
4:40 PM I'll check things in more detail later when I'm not at work to verify.
How's everything with you guys?
plako.plako: ok - Seems likely we won't get extension to our NAP
4:41 PM They've built some berserkers
me: yeah, I saw at least one of them.
I finally had a chance to log into play the turn yesterday. hadn't seen the turn itself since last week
4:42 PM plako.plako: Intresting times for us. I think war is quite likely
4:43 PM Do you've any idea how long was your NAP extension?
4:46 PM me: not offhand. I'll search check our forum later. things are busy at work today with catchup stuff, so can't spend time on the forums until after work
4:47 PM but recollection seems to be something that was somewhat shorter than I would have liked
4:48 PM plako.plako: ok

THH wrote:

I played the turn. I switched a bunch of cities to catapults. Strangely, Gillette's got galleys coming up the coast. Good stalling with plako - I hope Gillette declares soon so we don't have to any more!

[TheHumanHydra]

Our exchange continued:

HAK wrote:

I had a random thought today that we could use to rationalize the transfer of the catapults without an combat war happening with units dying. We treat it as if Gillette is intimidating us. They send forth a show of force to essentially intimidate us. The aggreement for a cease fire (before the first attack could happen) is that we hand over some catapults. Similar to how in some other wars, sometimes someone has to hand over a couple workers or a settler or something like that as part of the peace agreement.
This would validate us actually having a "War" with Gillette without a single drop of blood being drawn.

So this is how I think things should go down, and what we should probably send to Gillette in a message:
1. They send a bunch of their Beserkers and stuff towards our border and declare war.
2. Depending on timing, we almost immediately then sign a peace treaty. It would seem as if they declared war, told us that if we didn't hand over a few catapults that they would invade and raze some of our cities.
3. After the peace treaty & open borders is signed again, we gift over whatever catapults we can.
4. Part of this whole thing is that we need to sign a VERY long NAP with them. That needs to be our reassurance with the fact that we're giving them units that they could theoretically turn around and use against us. This would be their concession to us, for the handing over of catapults.

This new NAP with them would need to last a minimum of 75 turns, I'm thinking. Maybe even 100.
I know it limits us from being able to attack them, and capture some good cities, but I think it's something we just need to do. Maybe this is the time we make our own decision that we're going to have to head north first and invade the Pirates. And leave Gillette as someone to fight later in the game.

THH wrote:

Here's my proposed message:

Hey guys,

Thank you for that information, although it is alarming. We agree that you should declare war on us as soon as possible; plako has been asking about the state of our NAP with you and a state of war would greatly simplify our attempts to deceive him! Further, it's clear he suspects you will declare war on them.

There are two Troll units in our territory right now, the scout you saw and a chariot north of there near African Safari. HAK had a thought about how to explain the transfer of catapults and phoney war: we could tell the Trolls you demanded them in exchange for peace; you would just have to show enough units on our borders for us to appear legitimately intimidated. What do you think?

Also, even if the phoney war isn't entirely convincing, hopefully the attack will be devastating enough that the Trolls won't be able to do anything about the deception. Speaking of which, how many catapults do you estimate you will require to ensure the attack's success? We're currently building them in almost all our cities.

THH

HAK wrote:

We also want to mention the added long NAP after the declaration of peace. What length do you think you want? Do you want to ask for 100 turns and see what they say? Maybe if they counter-offer with 75 turns, we consider accepting that? I definitely think I don't want anything less than 75.
Are you also of the current mind that maybe we should consider attacking Pirates sometime in the next 100 turns?
Basically, if we give them military units, we need a guarantee that those units will never be used against us.

THH wrote:

Right; I added that in and sent it.

I am of the mind that we should either attack the Pirates (since I originally suggested it!) or perhaps join in against the Trolls in the next <100 turns. So yep, we definitely need to have war in our minds.

[HitAnyKey]

I logged in while Old Harry was playing their turn. We had a quick chat to go over a couple of the details. He said Trolls are 2 turns from Liberalism, which is not good. So he decided they needed to declare war this turn, so we can get the ball rolling on the Troll-fakeout. He said he has like 5 or 6 galleys ready that they'll sent after the Trolls once that time comes. He plans to send a handful of units to our border for the Troll scout to see, for the intimidate ruse. We'll send as many catapults down towards PigPen as we can, so that hopefully be T138 (it's T131 or 132 right now) there will be at least 5 or more ready to hand over when peace is declared.
He also said they'll send back to us any surviving catapults (though we'll see if that actually happens).
He also said the 100 turn NAP is a bit too long in his opinion. I offered up 80 turns, which he'll discuss with his team.

I plan to send a simple message to plako at some point simply of "I was apparently incorrect. We did not get our NAP extended either...and as you can see, they attacked us and not you. If there's any sort of support you can provide, it would be appreciated." Or something like that.

[HitAnyKey]

Ok, we have our Chitzen Itza!!! I also moved the first 4 catapults into position next to Gillette borders. Sent him an ingame diplo message that now is probably the best time to do this. We declare peace, next turn I send in the first 4 catapults right there. Another one moves into his borders from PigPen, and another moves in from over by Orient Point which then uses his roads to move east to Trolls. And we'll have another few catapults to give him in the few turns after that.
We also get Civil Service next turn, so as soon as that comes in it's time we change civics. Switch to Bureaucracy & that other one that my brain is not thinking of right now. lol
For techs, I say we go for Paper next to maybe see if we can snag the University of Sankore while the Troll/Gillette war is going on. Other option is to just go for Machinery...but I like the idea of trying to get UoS.

[TheHumanHydra]

Hooray for Itsa Chicken! I looked around, builds are good, we got our catapults a-rollin', and I think Paper for UoS is reasonable. Bureau for sure.

[HitAnyKey]

Civil Service has been gotten, changed civics, bunch of cities all grew, moved catapults closer to Gillette, and next turn they'll offer Open Borders and we'll send them over. Next turn 4 will go immediately to them over on the east side, and 2 will go over to them from by Orient Point on the west side. Old Harry was logged in when I got in, so we chatted a brief moment. They're current plan is to declare war on Trolls on T146. (or is it 141....whichever is about 4 or 5 turns from now)

Everything looks to be going according to plan. I saw plako tried to send me a chat message last night, but I was away from my computer and busy so couldn't reply. If he sends me another one between now and next turn, I'll try to keep my response to just "Getting Chitzen Itza helped us to come to an agreement that kept them from actually attacking us." Not sure what else I'll say if he presses for more details, but we'll see. Hopefully the next turn passes, and he'll see for himself at that time when our power drops and Gillette power increases.