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[SPOILERS] scooter Expands the Empire Across the Sea

T150 - Foreign Update





First is Cairo. Land-wise he got squeezed the hardest I think. I'm not totally sure until I finish defogging, but in general it feels like he could have had some land that Superdeath and Yuris hoovered up. In a way it seems his land is not too unlike mine in that he had enough if he pushed (in his case west), but he needed to hustle to get some of it. The one thing he does have going for him is like Yuris and Bing, his land is extremely green. Mine is painfully brown in comparison.


Cairo's tech situation is also pretty rough. He's not really a serious contender to win, and his islands near me are virtually empty. In general Ginger picked a high degree-of-difficulty leader/civ, and then Cairo was left to try to pilot it. His core cities nearest me are well-defended which looks like fear of me, but this is a player I see no need to mess with.


Threat Level: Low
Food Potential: Low





Next is Bing, who I am 85% sure is gearing up to take Ise from Yuris and 15% doing something wild I haven't considered. Bing is probably even further behind than Cairo, realistically. His panic rush to Feudalism came at a tough cost. He's the only remaining player without Machinery, and while he is PHI America, he already used a bunch of GP on a couple early golden ages and a weird bulb of a cheap-ish tech early in the game. Calendar was it? I don't remember. And now he's building up military. It's hard to know where he goes from here. His path to Galleons requires Machinery-Optics-Paper-Astro, and right now he's saving gold at 33gpt, so he might honestly be 50 turns from Galleons.


Bing is in last place. If I want to make gains, he looks to be the simplest target. Feudalism means cities will be expensive to capture, but I could come back with Grens off Galleons with Frigates to bombard long before he'll have Galleons, so it's on the table. Also, his culture is annoying, and his cities would integrate most easily. For now though, happy to have him and Yuris swipe at each other.


Threat Level: Low
Food Potential: Medium-High





Superdeath had an absolute ton of land available to him and expanded away. He's got so much he still has not settled it all. Superdeath I think is my top competition in this game. He completed Paper, and he's manual-teching Astro right now, fortunately no longer in a Golden Age. I think this will likely take him another 10T or so, but he's in striking distance. I can only assume his goal will be to whip a ton of Galleons and go conquering. The question really is whether he'll try to duel me, or if he'll try to out-capture me elsewhere. Actually, probably neither. He'll try to organize a dogpile, and if nobody wants to help him, he'll mail it in, maybe building a naval stack to dive bomb at me.


Superdeath is a unique case where he's not really ideal to conquer, but he's more in a position where I could maybe extract a concession if I started pressuring hard. Unlike the previous two, I think his chances of winning are > 0%. The tricky thing is that this isn't necessarily an obviously correct move as it doesn't account for the next player who also is probably > 0%, and whose chances would go up if I squabbled with Superdeath. So let's stick a pin in that idea for a moment.


Threat Level: Medium
Gank Potential: Medium





Yuris is an interesting case for different reasons. A lot of what I said about Superdeath can be said about him. The big, big difference here is I could capture and hold stuff from him realistically were I inclined to pursue that route. Satsuma for example contains the Buddhist Shrine, and it's enticingly close to my land. IIRC it also has another wonder. It can't be hit from the fog post-Optics of course, however what CAN be done from the fog is advancing to a quad-fork tile. Galleon(s) from the fog could move S-SE of Satsuma and fork Nagoya, Satsuma, Yokohama, and the capital of Kyoto. It's difficult to imagine all of them being defended sufficiently. There's also obviously his ongoing conflict with Bing which could have him distracted.


Of course, the obvious downside is surely he will have extremely well-promoted Samurai soon, so he would be prickly. Everything I said about Superdeath previously is true here. SD is the only player who feels vaguely close to me tech-wise, and he would be more free to try to turn this into a 2v1. And being on the receiving end of a Yuris/SD proper post-Astro dogpile feels like one of the avenues where I lose this game. That is the big issue here.


Threat Level: Medium
Gank Potential: Medium


Let's also run through graphs, though I did lose Cairo's because everyone's spending on me, and Superdeath is spending a LOT on me.








Food for me is steadily rising again as I keep settling cities, despite the fact that you can also see a few infra whip spurts. Yuris Forge usage (and therefore production-oriented tile improvements) is really stark here compared to the other 3 players.





My GNP just doesn't jutter THAT much. Part of this I think is my proliferation of Markets which I think dulls the gap between tech on vs tech off, but also I have just been running a LOT of 40-60% sliders over the last 50 turns. I've done away with that the last couple of turns. In general though my city spam and buildings completed are broadly canceling each other out.





Bing's buildup is actually crazy for someone who cannot even build Caravels. How does he expect to transfer any units safely across water? Yuris surely has some by now, and I've got both Caravels and Galleons. Any true offensives are one-way trips that are likely to be lost at sea.






Superdeath has absolutely blistered out the Courthouses in this game despite no ORG which has surely been incredibly expensive. As a result, he can see my research. I am spending all my EPs on him to prevent him from getting any further and hopefully eventually blocking the tech vis.
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Turn 150 - The Wrap






I set tech to break-even for this picture and most of the others just to show it's actual state. In reality I'll finish Gunpowder next turn and then save gold until I can get through Chemistry. Superdeath's absolutely non-existent military is just really stark here as it was in the previous post.





Another way to look at the Mao pick? I have built 78 buildings in this game with a trait discount. I wonder if anyone else has even got to half of that. 8 more are building right now. We'll easily cross 100 in the next 10-20 turns.





The Core.





My western colonization progress. Incense dot is the only one which does not yet have a settler earmarked for it.





My last two eastern dots. The last one is the only one over here with a settler still TBD as well. I'll do it, but rocketing the starts of the stronger cities on both sides has taken priority, while these last ones are merely useful fillers.
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The thing I noticed that surprised me a bit is that SD has been able to keep up with us recently in the GNP graph, since his GA. Some of that is KTBs constantly kicking in, where we are paying full cost for our tech, but our Cothon and now Castle advantages don't seem to be quite as robust as I expected. Partly this is because we still need to build those in our post-Astro cities to absorb the maintenance costs we've incurred settling them. I guess that should be further encouragement to us to finish our Castle roll-out, to make sure we keep SD at a good arm's length on the tech tree, and prevent him from doing anything about our future plans to continue expansion by the pointy stick.

Bing's early bolb was Mathematics, FWIW. For attacking Bing, do we really need Grens to make any progress? I had thought that with Frigates to bombard and Galleons for forking, we could make some inroads without them using Muskets and Maces -- e.g. our Muskets can easily get Drill 2 + Amphibious if necessary. Plus, what's he going to do about it, attack Frigates with Triremes?

Cairo doesn't make a great first target for aggression; we need our ice island to power up for quite a while before that will be a good idea. But once we've got Bing's western lands under our control, Cairo might make a decent second meal if we're still in a mood for conquest.
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(October 25th, 2024, 15:18)Zed-F Wrote: Re: Privateers - well, we are in the lead and are about to tech Frigates. Privateers in CtH are just something you use while catching up to someone else's Frigates, right? They don't offer the ability to bombard IIRC. I'm not sure we really want to build many of these; land units might be better while waiting for Chemistry so we have things to load on Galleons.

Some Privateers are good, they start with Sentry.

(October 25th, 2024, 21:08)Zed-F Wrote: The thing I noticed that surprised me a bit is that SD has been able to keep up with us recently in the GNP graph, since his GA. Some of that is KTBs constantly kicking in, where we are paying full cost for our tech, but our Cothon and now Castle advantages don't seem to be quite as robust as I expected. Partly this is because we still need to build those in our post-Astro cities to absorb the maintenance costs we've incurred settling them. I guess that should be further encouragement to us to finish our Castle roll-out, to make sure we keep SD at a good arm's length on the tech tree, and prevent him from doing anything about our future plans to continue expansion by the pointy stick.

I think SD is putting some hammers into wealth to fuel his research; he's definitely been spending hammers on courthouses instead of units.
Playing: PB74
Played: PB58 - PB59 - PB62 - PB66 - PB67
Dedlurked: PB56 (Amicalola) - PB72 (Greenline)
Maps: PB60 - PB61 - PB63 - PB68 - PB70 - PB73 - PB76

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
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Ok if Privateers start with Sentey then sure, it could be good to have a small number.
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Confirmed that Bing is indeed sending these things east towards Yuris. This turn and today's turn I was able to circle around his south coast and see nothing clearly moving our direction.





Settled Trate last turn and immediately converted it to Hinduism. Today I swapped Letheras to a Missionary for Drene and will whip it at size 2 in order to get Drene popped ASAP. Fish will come online for Letheras in 2T and that city will speed up.






This scared me for a brief second as it appeared as if there was a coastal path I missed, when I realized Yuris getting Astro means his Work Boats can now cross ocean. I have been queuing longbows more and more lately in order to restock defenses in all these empty islands as they need a wave of defenders ASAP. This does mean he's going to see all our islands soon though.





Which may prompt a change in behavior? Hard to say. Depends on if he's able to diffuse with Bing or not.





Yuris did pick up another Scientist last turn. However, this shouldn't speed him up as he can tech Philosophy, which should block him from a Paper bulb.





Gunpowder is in. Queued a Musket. Chemistry will take at worst 7 turns as shown here, but it should in fact be 6 turns. This means it'll come in ~4 turns before what will hopefully be my second unique GP. So assuming we don't get awful RNG, this would mean we could get Chemistry, spend 3-5 turns whipping out a round of Frigates, and then pop our 2-man MoM-GA. The goal of which will be to acquire a 3-man GA, and spend these 24T trying to carefully salt the game away. Chemistry will be massive honestly. With how hard the others had to grind to catch me to Astro, I think they are eons away from Chemistry. I sort of suspect you might start seeing concessions once Frigates are seen.





Also queued a couple Privateers such as this one in a southern whipping post. (A "whipping post" that generates net 34gpt at 0% science.) As Tarkeel mentioned, I love Privateers due to the free Sentry - incredibly valuable for vision at sea both defensively and offensively. Plus they beat Galleons, so this will ensure I'll maintain the strongest unit at sea even if one of the others hit Astro.
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Tech after Chemistry I don't think is very complicated. Here are the options in order of likelihood.


Banking: I think this is the obvious next choice. This would allow instant Mercantilism when the Golden Age kicks off, which is really valuable for us given we're already domestic-only. +28 Scientists would for example add 84 base beakers to our tech. Most cities have a Library, so this is closer to 100bpt, or a civ-wide tech increase of around 25%. I think this is top priority as a result. The payback time for this tech is what, like 6 turns? Easy choice.


Philosophy: Pacifism will be useful in this Golden Age as we attempt to generate 3 more GP. Doing it second means there's a chance we're missing it for the first 5 turns, but I think that's acceptable. It also opens up a path to Nationalism, where Nationhood and/or Taj are eventually appealing, but maybe not so much in the short-term. There's maybe a case for trying to get to Constitution/Representation to turbo-charge the Merc specialists, but I think the bottom of the tree is too important for this expensive of a detour.


Military Science: You could sell me on skipping the above and simply beelining this and then going all-in on Grens. SotL is also insurance from someone else hitting Chemistry. I'm not sure it's the way to go, but a case could be made.


I think we literally just tech them in this exact order as the next 3 techs after Chemistry. But open to alternatives.
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I like Banking-Philo and would in no way prioritize Military Science over these. The point of this GA is mainly to prevent other people from accessing paths that would potentially allow them to catch up by taking away all the first-to bonuses and securing them for us instead to cement our lead. We simply don't need SotL yet and won't for a while. I agree that Nationalism is nice and we want to be sure to get Taj before anyone else does, but we at least need to fire our 3rd GA before teching it to get our full 12 turns, and I don't think we should try to prioritize Constitution; it's not on the path to metal ships, should the game somehow go that long.

Providing we can secure the Economics merchant and our 3rd golden age even if we get Military Science after Banking-Philo, I guess I'm ok with that next. It's a lot of beakers, though. Grens would be useful in an attack, but I don't know that we necessarily need them in the first wave, or in large numbers initially. Our first strike should fall on mostly under-prepared cities regardless of who our target is, since we expect most of Bing's military to be on the Yuris border and we have the mobility to be able to pick and choose targets from the fog. In our golden age we can tech somewhat faster, but not necessarily a lot faster since so much of our income is trade-based. Since we've had a Caravel wander by Bing's western holdings recently -- how much defense is he maintaining over there?

It sounds to me like the debate after Banking-Philo is between going straight for Military Science for Grens and going first to Economics to try to get into Free Market first and then get Grens on the back of that improved trade economy. Of course Mercantilism is also an economy booster and I am not sure how much better Free Market is for our economy than Mercantilism is. The answer, as said before, might be 'not enough better' to eclipse the value from having Grens in hand. In that case it seems likely going to Economics would follow Military Science, then we might Liberalize Steel (if we don't try for something even juicier, depending on how much progress we feel others are making toward Liberalism and whether we want to be in Free Religion or Theocracy.)

Another question -- when we do get to Economics, what are the chances that we might intend to build a couple-few Custom Houses and open borders with someone? This might affect how quickly we prioritize these. That could offer a significant improvement to our economy at those cities, but custom houses are very expensive, and we will likely need most of our hammers on military, so it seems more likely that we will be too focused on horizontal expansion to make this sort of vertical development a priority.
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Agree that Banking w/Mercantilism is very appealing here; just a reminder that Representation is a very good combo.

Nationalism and Taj would be a very high priority on a normal map, but with hammers being in short supply it's a lot harder to build. I doubt we have much forests to chop either, but perhaps a whip-overflow could be set up? Not sure we have a city with enough pop and the relevant buildings not built yet.

How many villages and towns do we have yet, for the purpose of evaluating PrintingPress?

Haven't run the numbers, but my gut says that Custom Houses aren't worth it this time either.
Playing: PB74
Played: PB58 - PB59 - PB62 - PB66 - PB67
Dedlurked: PB56 (Amicalola) - PB72 (Greenline)
Maps: PB60 - PB61 - PB63 - PB68 - PB70 - PB73 - PB76

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
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Re: Representation, that’s a 2000 beaker tech that doesn’t get us closer to anything else we actually want in the near term, when we don’t expect to be running many specialists after this extended GA. If it were a requirement for anything we want before Assembly Line, I could see it, but the odds we get to Assembly Line this game seem vanishingly small. It doesn’t seem as though the payoff horizon is likely to be there, but I haven’t done the math; is it?

Re: Villages & Towns, I think that’s fairly negligible. The main value of PP for us is that it leads to Steam Power and Sci Meth — things we want in the long term but not anytime soon. Replaceable Parts is in a similar position; we just don’t have that many land tiles.

Re: Taj — I tend to think we want this (eventually) for denial value as much as anything else, and bearing in mind we expect our empire to be expanding horizontally in the not-too-distant future. I don’t think we care so much if our Taj build is slow as long as nobody else is in a position to grab it. Hopefully we are forcing them away from doing so with our progress along the bottom of the tree.
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