RBP3 [SPOILERS] Hannibal of Byzantium (Bobchillingworth, ManiaMuse & SleepingMoogle)

[SleepingMoogle]

I already sent a quick message to England acknowledging we wouldn't be joining PAT, but we can probably do with something more official.

(Small rant here) What I think they were referring to is not so much the diplomacy in itself, but the intent behind it. I'm getting seriously burnt out on allowing any form of tech trading in these MP games (and maybe diplomacy altogether as an extension), as the only thing it seems to accomplish is turn the game into a massive min/max backstabbing fest. I won't deny the effort being placed in these mega-alliances is efficient towards winning, but with 17 Civs starting I really was hoping we'd end up with something more than a basic MP teamer game.

[Bobchillingworth]

Okay, emailed Kyan. In the event that lurkers want another example of my standard diplo missive style, enjoy (I cut some stuff out from the start which pertained to confidentiality and a proposed horse-for-catapults trade):

Okay,

So in case you hadn't heard or figured already, my team will not be joining PAT. Actually had a rare total agreement situation there between team members. The rationale is too cumbersome to really discuss in email; suffice it to say, we thought over the issue most thoroughly.

Being on different sides isn't going to change my team's feelings or relations to you in any way, I want to affirm that right now. We are still happy to trade with you, and will do so regardless of what others think.

I have conveyed my feelings regarding your civ to my allies, and I am assured that you guys (and Maya) will not number amoung the targets. I understand that you are very likely unable to arrange a similar agreement protecting my civ from your end, and that's fine. You already stuck your neck out far enough trying to bring my civ into the PAT, and my civ is one of the most obvious targets for England and Egypt now.

Our civs have both made pledges to each other of military protection if attacked by enemies, and to the best of my knowledge we still have an NAP active, which we signed very early on in the game. I would like to formalize our two civ's "special relationship" with written agreements, if you are amenable. Specifically, I would like to clarify our NAP as being continuous with at least a 10 turn cancellation notice (would prefer longer, like 20, but negotiable). The NAP would come with clauses for no gifting of troops to hostile 3rd parties for attacks on either of us, and no passage for enemy forces seeking to attack either of us. Also, no hostile scouting (sending revealing intel screencaps to enemies for their tactical maneuvering).

I would certainly be interested in additional clauses for mutual defense, either through gifting of defensive units to the besieged party, or outright declaring on the aggressor(s). Another option is that we are both obligated to inform the other if an attack is planned on us (we would need to decide how to work around in within the confines of confidentiality with 3rd parties in this case). However, I understand if you are unable to agree to such a proposal, if it would cause untenable conflict with your allies. Still, at the very least we can ensure that any civilization that wants to attack one of us really has to work for it


If you agree to at least the above "modified NAP" arrangement, then I have some more ideas to bounce off you, specifically regarding the "Palpatine Proposal" I brought up in our group chat. I can see both of us coming out from this current division in very powerful positions- I hope you feel the same way...


Let me know what you think!



For the Spectre Council,


Bobchillingworth

Heh, obviously didn't proofread that last section enough :P

[SleepingMoogle]

The turn rolled over so I had a quick look in-game. France was eliminated by its aggressors so we are down to 14 Civs now. Jenkins pillaged another mine in anger for 13 gold with a lone English Warrior as a mute witness. The Agincourt continues to move the Workers south, so far without any trouble.

We finished another Spearman at Feros, the build's currently set to an Archer (finishes in 2 turns). If we need more spears, feel free to swap the builds. The barb warrior near the city hasn't crossed into our borders yet, instead moving north. I moved the chariot to cover the Workers building a farm at Therum, but the barb could also move NE and threaten a Babylonian farm. We could offer assistance if that is the case; our chariot will be able to intercept before the barb can do any damage.

The citadel is out of unhappiness again, but with the cap currently at 7, I figured the scheduled 1-pop whip wouldn't help much. Instead, I moved some tiles to work mines instead. We're currently working the silver, sheep, all cottages and 2 mines and have a minor food surpluss. The library will finish in 2 turns this way. I'm guessing afterwards we can swap to a Barracks, 2-pop whip the citadel, and let the overflow go into Walls or a military unit (or a Settler?). We can also consider constructing a Monument at some point for the additional happiness.

India asked some research figures via mail (there's more that I haven't got around to reading yet) so here are ours:

At 0% research: +33 gold/turn
At 60% research: +32 beakers/turn (breaking even)
At 100% research: +54 beakers/turn, -21 gold/turn

These figures will be obsolete very soon though; we're working on libraries to boost research, some cottages will mature soon, and Eden prime will get more cottages to work as well. Plus we may have to emphasize production to build military units for a while.

Finally, we now have visibility on the NW, and can place a pretty decent commerce city there at some point (although as long as we may be the target for an attack, that would be exceedingly unwise). Sumeria's donated Warrior will be defogging the tiles to our NE soon. We have some knowledge of what is hiding underneath from screenshots provided by the Mayans a while ago, but it never hurts to have actual visibility. The area is actually quite rugged, so it could make for a good production city location.

[Bobchillingworth]

Things I don't like:



-Babylon hasn't gotten back to us yet regarding strengthening our NAP. I know he's read my message, he posted in his thread like half an hour after I sent it, and then Whosit did not long after that. This delay is a bad sign; perhaps trying to ignore the issue or sharing it with others or thinking of a way to brush us off. Or maybe something less sinister, I certainly hope so.


-While I respect Portugal for taking the lead in organizing anti-PAT, I really don't like them trying to direct our tech path, especially since while they agreed with me in chat that guilds is the greatest priority, they seem to be talking about crap like rushing to engineering instead, or us researching calendar. I entirely object to our civ giving up control of both our tech and military decisions to portugal and Sunrise, respectively, alliance be damned. Although since we're basically now wedded to India, having Sunrise boss everyone around works pretty well regarding the Palpatine Proposal. I would so much rather more freelance, but alas not practical here.



Waaaaahhhhh

[SleepingMoogle]

Sunrise probably knows more about effective military movements in MP than the three of us combined, so I'm glad to have him calling the shots to be honest.

Anyway, the idea as I understand it for now:

*We receive Priesthood from the Incans and trade for Monarchy with England next turn (T90).
*We should also receive Code of Laws from Portugal.

This will allow us to double-revolt into Hereditary Rule and Caste System. We then run a number or merchant specialists to pop a Great Merchant asap. Eden Prime will probably be the best city to do this as it can sustain the merchants, and it leaves the Citadel free for production.

While we are generating the merchant, we slow-tech our way towards Machinery (we have Metal Casting as of one only two anti-PAT civs, India being the other one).

We use the merchant to bulb Civil Service or Guilds, with Portugal generating a Merchant for the second tech.


Anyway, since we have the potential to be a strong teching Civ, we should probably get city 5 settled asap. So once the citadel finishes its Library, I'm for getting started on a Settler. The two Workers being escorted south should arrive around T95, and mine the two hills NW of the city. At that point we go into full-production if needed.

Feros can continue building military, Eden will continue its Library which will take a while with running Merchants, and Therum can get started on a Barracks after the Granary finishes.

Something else that crossed my mind: If we get Monarchy next turn, we should definitely hook up the Wine near Therum for more happiness.

[Bobchillingworth]

Sweet, just got priesthood from Inca, and Monarchy from England. We owe them 200 gold, payable as soon as currency comes in, so don't spend any until then


Just need code of laws and then we can revolt into the caste system and hed rule. I also requested sailing from Portugal and Meditation from Aztec on a lark, dunno if they'll actually gift those to us.



Also got a NAP with England until turn 105, so they won't be pointing those leftover HA from fighting with France our way soon, or at least not immediately. I chatted with Maniac earlier, and he was of the opinion that no attack will be sent our way for quite some time; seems that the PAT doesn't see it as being worthwhile since Maya and Babylon refuse to help. He said he would tip us off if he heard about an attack incoming; of course we need to do the same for him (although I already got Portugal to agree that no attacks should be planned on Maya or Babylon). Also sounds like we might be able to sign a Mutual Defense Pact with Maya, which would rock. Also also, that's totally just between us and Maya.


Of course, no reason to let our allies know that we might not be as at risk as some of them seem to think

[Bobchillingworth]

Okay, logged in, got code of laws, moved some stuff. We have a barb axe incoming from the north, but I think we can intercept it in time with our zone defense chariot before it can pillage or attack anything. Also a barb warrior, I moved the Forest Walkers of Tech next to it, so hopefully the warrior will suicide itself instead of moving further into our borders; if it doesn't, then the Citadel's spear will be able to handle it easily enough, and get another promo while it's at it.


I didn't end turn or revolt yet; do we want to do that this turn? Eden Prime doesn't have its farm finished yet and right now is working all of its cottages / hamlets, so we might not want to run a merchant yet... dunno. You guys decide :neenernee

[Bobchillingworth]

Man I need more stuff to do on my weekends...



Anyway, really good news; spoke with Kyan, and not only is he totally in with the Palpatine Proposal, but we agreed to several NAP additions-


*No allowing enemy troops passage from us to him or visa-versa

*No gifting troops that will be used to fight either of us (need to remember this one, since we will be doing some gifting once we get 'phracts

*No giving screenshots of either of our territory to the enemy.

*20 turn cooldown for the NAP (I think- might need to read over my chat again, but to be honest I don't see us ever fighting him anway...)

*He will alert us if an attack is planned our way, and try to make sure we don't end up on the targets list. We have already gotten him off our side's list (might need to reinforce that to make sure everyone knows tho), and should likewise warn him if someone wants to take a piece out of him.


Also he has improved his relations with India, which helps for our long-term core group arrangements. He also said that no attack has been planned on us by the PAT; combined with what Maya say, and England's readiness to make that T105 NAP with us, I think we're pretty safe from attack... not that Feros should go off military production. We're still going to want plenty more spears, and at least a couple axes. However, we will need to switch it over to a stable at some point.

Alas we will not be getting currency from him; he doesn't think he can trade it without seriously jeopardizing his own position, and I can't fault is reasoning tbh. Portugal won't get it either, so they won't be happy about that.

[SleepingMoogle]

Nice one. It's too bad about Currency, but I understand their position.

Anyway, Eden should still be the best place to run Merchants. It will grow to size 4 in the same turn the Rice is farmed, at which point we can comfortably run Merchants.

We finish an Archer and library next turn so let's hold off revolting now and do once those builds finish..

[SleepingMoogle]

Turn 91 came along. The barb Warrior unfortunately did not attack our Woody II Warrior and moved south, the barb axe moved SE. Unfortunately we can't move our Warrior to block again without exposing him to the axe, so it's probably better to either remain in place or retreat for another opportunity later on. Our Chariot will most likely be able to take out the Axe next turn before he can do any damage.

In other news, another barb axe appeared SE of Eden Prime. With all the activity in the north, I'm not sure if the zone-defence Chariot will be able to make it to Eden in time if the barb heads our way. We could send the Normandy in that direction, but he needs to go around a number of peaks to make it there.

Thoughts? We can always whip Feros for another Chariot before revolting to Caste and send it over for defense. It's not great, but a Spear and Warrior don't have good odds against an Axe.

The Citadel finished a Library and switched to a Settler, which will be sped along by a Forest chop. Other units have been moved, the question is whether we should do the revolting this turn. Waiting for your confirmation to do it, but right now would probably be the best time.