WW20: Legend of the Undercity

[Meiz]

To me it seemed like he was having those thoughts about the players voting for Flug_auto for the first time. Like if he haven't done it before, when he decided to vote for GaiusMarius, and he's only now doing it, after being called on it. Or better, it seems like he was reaching those conclusions while making the post, rather than explaining why he did what he did.

But, yeah, maybe I'm seeing too much into it.

Well, I get the same feeling mostly because I really doubt he did that big of an analysis at the time he voted Gaius. But I'm not sure if that's a direct evidence of his wolfness. Villager being questioned on the vote might also review the case more closely and add bits and pieces to it, to appear having more solid case than it actually was.

[Ichabod]

To me it seemed like he was having those thoughts about the players voting for Flug_auto for the first time. Like if he haven't done it before, when he decided to vote for GaiusMarius, and he's only now doing it, after being called on it. Or better, it seems like he was reaching those conclusions while making the post, rather than explaining why he did what he did.

But, yeah, maybe I'm seeing too much into it.

God you give up easily. You talked so loudly about what you would show us and how you would provide us with the greatest lynch ever in history and now you already back down, your case not even living through the night? Why does that remind me on your pindicator case? Or in fact, on your whole play... you are much more interested to agree with Lewwyn, zak and novice than to actually go for your reads. As long as you agree with them everythings fine, because they won't vote you and without those voting you, you won't get lynched.

My case isn't ready, I'm still reviewing the posts. I just drop that single point as being very meaningful. My case is more based on his vote on me, as I'll show you.

[novice]

Was mich wirklich aufregt, ist die vollkommene Ignoranz die an den Tag gelegt wird. Mag damit zusammenhängen das ich mich im Job mit ähnlichem herumschlagen darf, aber es ist einfach anstrengend wenn man blöde Sprüche kassiert (wie oft wurden am Tag 1 unsere "walls of text" gerügt?) und Ichabod noch viel extreme Textwälle (und da passt das Wort sogar) bastelt und dafür dann von genau den Spielern gelobt wird die vorher noch über einen herzogen.

Und ja, ich weiß ich sollte das einfach ignorieren und mir meinen Spaß suchen im Spiel.

I actually found Ichabod's wall of text quite daunting too, and slightly suspicious. But then I realized 90% of it was two big quotes. I think it would be nice if all of us could spoiler long quotes when we can.

[Ichabod]

Was mich wirklich aufregt, ist die vollkommene Ignoranz die an den Tag gelegt wird. Mag damit zusammenhängen das ich mich im Job mit ähnlichem herumschlagen darf, aber es ist einfach anstrengend wenn man blöde Sprüche kassiert (wie oft wurden am Tag 1 unsere "walls of text" gerügt?) und Ichabod noch viel extreme Textwälle (und da passt das Wort sogar) bastelt und dafür dann von genau den Spielern gelobt wird die vorher noch über einen herzogen.

Und ja, ich weiß ich sollte das einfach ignorieren und mir meinen Spaß suchen im Spiel.

I actually found Ichabod's wall of text quite daunting too, and slightly suspicious. But then I realized 90% of it was two big quotes. I think it would be nice if all of us could spoiler long quotes when we can.

Like the saying goes, life is too short to learn german. Anyway, I didn't make any wall of text, my actual text is very little. The problem is this embedded quotes that make everything huge.

Old forum software, while outdated, was better for WW play.

[Ichabod]

I have to head out and might not be back for lynch. With Bigger's recent showing, and reading of cases, I feel like Ichabod is the best lynch candidate, for many of the same reasons as Serdoa and others say. Hopefully I'll be back before deadline though.

No new reasons to vote for me.

Besides Gazglum, I'd be interested in voting BRick off. He's playing too neutral, but making sure to appear active. Most of his early posts concentrated on picking apart so far built cases, for not having enough evidence behind them. Pressing people for reasons for their early votes, when at this point there's much of nothing to accuse people of (starting posts and roleplaying in general). It's day 1, there is rarely any evidence, just lots of gut feelings, random votes or applying pressure. I understand when you start to ask for reasons at this point, but he did it way too early.

When you look at the posts where he actually suspects someone, it's these two:
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid336644
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid336856

Again too neutral and safe IMO. I think he's a wolf just riding safely through the day 1.

Good post by Meiz. Agree with it. See Brick post above.

Haven't read things yet, just looked around and saw a lot of walls of text that end up with votes on me. All these people are suspicious. Brick is suspicious too, I see his smallish post voting for me too.

Let's be honest, I'm the perfect place to park a scum vote. Probably not lynched, veteran player, playing awfully (I don't think i'm playing awfully, just don't want to hold people's hand and walk them to the right path - first, because I have no hands, duh - second, because I'm too occupied helping the big guy)... Clackity, clackity, clack -> vote for me and be happy scum.

Let's see, without reading the actual cases, here's what I think:

*Serdoa votes for me as often as I vote for Gaspar and Lewwyn - can be innocent
*Bigger is annoyed due to last game - can be innocent
*Rowain... Hm... Probably scum...
*BRick... Likely scum, I'd think

So, everyone voting for you giving reasons is suspicious. And everyone voting for you giving no reasons is suspicious too. Generally everyone is suspicious if he votes for you - did I get that right? That is pretty scummy in itself already. That is followed then by explaining how you are the perfect place to park a vote. I don't agree, especially on your reasoning. Veteran player is not equal to being lynchproof D1, even though wolves always try their best to make everyone believe in that, gives some security D1. Anyhow.

I am really surprised that you try to talk away your whole behaviour with "I don't want to walk people to the right path". Um, that has nothing to do with my vote and I don't think it is why the others vote you. I vote for you because you backed off, not showing in the slighest interest for your targets. You didn't care. I can understand when you explained the reasons for your vote, you get told off and decide that you don't want to engage in hour-long discussions why your reads are right. But thats not the case with you. It is not that you don't want to engage in discussion, it is that you don't care who gets lynched. It is that you don't even stay on your target - it is all the same for you, as long as it isn't a wolf that gets lynched.

Would I not be voting you already, this last post by you would imo be reason enough to do it now. You did nothing, except for telling us that everyone who votes you is scum and ride along the opening that zak gave you, telling us that you don't want to "walk people the right path". Honestly, thats part of the game. To convince others about your reads. But ok, you don't want to do that, you don't want to answer the accusations about you, you don't want to tell us your thoughts. You just want to scare us off by stating that only scum would vote for you.

You know what: I'll stay with my vote. When someone is defending himself like you do, chances are very high that he is a wolf.

Ichabod

First paragraph: I said in the post that you and Bigger seemed to be innocent and that I was more suspicious of Brick. I don't understand what you mean by me finding everyone that votes for me suspicious. Now my views have changed, and I think Bigger and Brick are more likely wolves than you or Rowain.

As a friendly reminder from the Enrichment Center, symptoms most commonly produced by testing are superstition, perceiving inanimate objects as alive, and hallucinations. Which would explain why I see a talking skull and a whatever-the-hell Azza is.



@zak-

People are comparing flug to thestick and I think that's a poor comparison. Thestick showed pretty classical scumtells, revealing an underlying desire to have somebody else lynched. We're not seeing that from flug here. If he is scum I would rather compare it to Q's scum game, where he had me completely fooled by looking so much like a helpless, inept, villager. Flug isn't quite at that end of the spectrum, either, though. So I don't really have an issue with people voting to lynch him, but it still feels a bit too obvious to me.

Novice lays out the structure of flug's posts here:
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid336343

What's similar to me is that both thestick & flug here have flailed around once they received some heat, accusing several people quickly. But what is more striking to me is that flug_auto has dodged all questions at explaining why he voted for the people he did. Well, he dodged the first and then he has disappeared. That disappearence looks scummy, because he's not trying to interact and help us understand what he's thinking, he's just hoping that we'll find other targets and it will go away. Which was very much like thestick

Flug_Auto has disappeared. First he dodged the question to explain his votes and now he has completely fallen off the map. THis disappearence when in the lead is the biggest newbie wolf tell I've seen out of him in a laundry list of them. Now you may have said the stuff before wasn't like thestick, but this is EXACTLY what thestick did when he got heat.


@Serdoa-

Serdoa seems to enjoy testing as much as I do! I find his test results quite fascinating... (Testing = Scum Hunting for all intents and purposes.)
Do you want to join on zak? Or should I join you on ichabod

2. Because he didn't follow it up but backed off as soon as Lewwyn called him. Not because he agreed with anything weakening his case though, he clearly stated that he just backed off of pindi because no on shared his suspicion. How is that not non-committal? How is that not trying to appease to Lewwyn by backing off of a target as soon as he gets fire for it. I mean, have you read the thread Jkaen or are just posting this to defend Ichabod? Have you at least read my post on Ichabod himself or again, are you just here to defend him?

Not only that, he did it very quickly. I think it was two or three posts later.

Serdoa, you have a supporter here. I agree with you on Ichabod and I think zak has looked shady today as well. But flug_auto seems the best lynch to me. Perhaps he is "low hanging fruit" to other people but to me he is "most likely scum". Squirming and dodging under pressure and then disappearing altogether instead of answering a very simple question: "why did you suspect who you suspected?" Molach's reveal raises more questions: why hasn't flug posted in the neighbor thread? He definitely posted in this thread after molach made his post.


Fake Edit: Well, cross post with Molach saying that flug is talking in the neighbor thread. Can he talk here as well? Would be good to hear his reasoning.


What am I at now? 5?

Pindicator didn't comment anymore on his good case against Gazglum, prefering to keep bashing on Zakalwe, while making a very bad mixture between suspecting Zakalwe because he talks about flug and suspcting flug too. Very contrived post, if you sum it up with his other posts. Forgetting Gazglum is pretty telling, IMO. I'm getting very suspicious of Pindicator.

Going to reply to the Brothers Annoygasparov first:

[Did you think that was my view?

I don't really remember what I was thinking well enough to answer this in the past. I'll answer in the now - I don't really know how you think. Because I think you're generally a sharp villager and I like to consider myself also a generally sharp villager I often make the presumption we think about things similarly when I haven't played for a while before we inevitably spend the whole game butting heads and I hate you and everything you stand for. And I believe getting heavily involved in the credit game is a scumtell. More on this in response to the chick with the backpack. (FWIW, you should totally have been Swiper.)

Bigger, do you ever actually try in these games? You're trying to ride coattails of zak's flimsy but at least partly justified crusade against me. I especially don't like the post where you try to claim credit for being part of starting it when all you've actually contributed is a joke vote you haven't moved and your "me too" posts. I'm very sensitive to people trying to get in on or deflect credit before we know results, especially under no pressure. So here, have some pressure.

But why would scum Bigger want credit for your lynch, unless you yourself are scum?

Have we started lynching people for bad reads? In the games I've played, we give credit for being on the bus early and/or contributing heavily to it. So often when you get to day 4 or so the scum argument is something along the lines of "I read 4 days and nothing." If you can point to "I led the bus on Gaspar on day 1" great. Also, and I think this is the critical point - its highly unlikely I get lynched on day 1. I've never gotten lynched on day 1. I usually defend okay and there's usually someone who draws attention to themselves. Sure - maybe everyone reads this post and decides they want to put me in my place and there's nothing I can do to stop it - but barring something like that I know I'm not getting lynched today, zakalwe knows I'm not getting lynched today, you know I'm not getting lynched today and Bigger knows I'm not getting lynched today. So the only thing better than having credit for a failed lynch is having credit for being out in front of a lynch only to have the oh so stupid village fail to follow you.

The other thing, and the primary reason I'm on Bigger right now - villagers only get in the credit game when they're under pressure. Scum anticipate being under pressure and look for credit immediately. Most villagers take a Pollyanna view and think their villagerness will shine through and hence don't lay groundwork in the same way. Bigger started trying to "claim" my bus before he had gotten any pressure at all. Just doesn't make any sense.

I know that doesn't really answer Zak's question directly, but hopefully it reveals my thought process well enough.

Great post by Gaspar. His read on Bigger is pretty nice and makes me think that my previous villagery read on that Bigger post was wrong.

I just realized I never voted flug. Whoops, that fake edit timing threw me.

Serdoa, I will join you on ichabod. But I may very well switch to flug if I don't like what he does from here on out (for example, doing nothing)

I'm going to step out for a while. Should be able to see what's up before deadline, and to see if I need to switch to flug or not.

@Ryan
It's pretty obvious that I'm counting, isn't it?

3

Pindicator's confusion gets even more obvious. To me, confusion regarding who you are voting for and why is a scum trait. If you suspect someone, you don't forget. If you create cases out of thin air, you tend to forget/make mistakes afterwards. This is pretty similar to the mistakes I've made on WW7 playing a wolf.

Pindicator, even higher on the suspiciometer.

Suspects for now: Brick, Bigger, Pindicator, Gazglum

[Serdoa]

Nice accusation there, Bigger! I'm acting scummy. Cool. I say I'm acting villagery. What's your retort?

Others are called scummy for repeating the points that were brought forward against a suspect. Now Bigger gets called for NOT repeating the points that were already brought forward. You can't have it both ways.

Well, something I've not been crazy about is Ichabod's roleplay about copying 'the boss'' votes, or revenge voting if someone targets you. I do love Morte, and I'm enjoying Ichabod's rendition, but this also strikes me as a way Ichabod can later disclaim responsibility for his actions as partly roleplaying.

Let's review the situation. I voted for Gazglum just a bit before this post. Gazglum probably knows I'm a veteran player and a difficult lynch. I had one vote at the time, Bigger voted for me. So, what does Gazglum do? He throws a bit of suspicion at me, but doesn't vote. This is scum play, still not very confident scum play.

His argument is forced, of course. What does it matter if I follow Jkaen around? I don't see a problem.

1. Of course it matters if you follow someone else, as you make it impossible to get a read on you. Thats already what happened, as you got called on certain votes and stated "oh no, that was just fun following Jkaen".

2. Your whole retort here makes no sense. I have NEVER seen a wolf try to get someone specific lynched on D1. Why should they? And with flug there was a great D1 mislynch, no need for them to even try to lynch you.

And before you start that complaining about me shortening your post Ichabod, I did read the other part of this specific accusation. I just decided not to repost it to keep this shorter, as you just explained in list form again what you already wrote in lenghty sentences.

It was an obvious follow-Jkaen-joke-vote for anyone that already played Planescape: Torment and I especifically said that I was going to do that before. It was even a revote on Zakalwe, making everything more obvious. My gaspar vote was serious, but it was just to see what gaspar was going to do (and because his interactions with Meiz were a bit off to me).

Rowain already answered that, but just for emphasis: Why is your reader responsible to know when you make a joke-vote and when a serious one? Thats just a nice way for you to test the waters or make distancing votes and if someone calls you, call it a joke.

Sorry, Serdoa, but all this shows to me is that I wasn't careful with my tongue during this game. This is partly roleplay, partly due to very low time commitment to the game and partly because I don't care that much about what i'm going to say when playing village. I spent the whole AitP game counting my words, I want some rest now.

Um, I'm sorry, but

1. scum is found by looking at oddities. I won't ignore them just because you tell me you didn't care this game. Scum would state exactly the same.

2. Several of the points I made have nothing to do with HOW you wrote something to begin with. For example I called you for backing off from your pindicator suspicion as soon as Lewwyn called you on it. I don't care what exactly you wrote, the action in itself is the scummy part, not the sentences you posted.

His defense points are very valid I think. I'm not going to parrot them on his behalf when he's defending perfectly adequately himself.

If that is defending perfectly adquately I know why scum didn't want to lynch you when they had the opportunity in WW19...

Now, a question for you Rowain. Do you feel Ichabod's latest post makes him look more scummy? If you do one of us is suffering from confirmation bias. It might be me of course.

Actually novice, I do. As you seem to forget so many things easily, that is what Ichabod wrote on D1

"I think Serdoa wrote more words on his 2/3 accusation posts against me than I wrote all game. Goes to show how things roll around here. Lots of words, must be something good right. Nothing against Serdoa, let me add, it's something pretty common. "

He belittled my long post against him without ever answering it (he still didn't btw, his answer till now was just "I don't care enough about what I post"). And now he makes an even longer post and you call it great defense. Nothing against Ichabod, but I would agree with his sentence above "Lots of words, must be something good right.". Have you even checked one of his statements or did you just "feel" that what he writes sounds good?

Honestly, why do I ask? I mean, you go on in your post with:

Let's recap the case, since you and Serdoa refused to do so, preferring to hit us with walls of quotes instead of trying to actually convince people.

Seems Ichabod convinced you pretty well with an even bigger wall of quotes. I guess I just didn't quote enough then, eh?

Ichabod's scum tells
* Post summarized by Serdoa as "At least one Meiz voter is a wolf - though maybe he is the wolf in which case that would probably not be so." I agree that this was an unhelpful post. Legitimate scum tell, although a weak tell.
* Roleplay/joke vote for Zakalwe, following JKaen. Scumminess depends on player personality. See below.
* Appealing for others to do scumhunting. One post where he asks someone to look into Meiz voters, one post where he asks people to examine Rowain's post for anger (which I later did). Null tell I think, I think it's reasonable for a villager with little time to do this.

As we already found out, that is not true, he did never state he has little time, just that he didn't want to do it. So the points stands and is not a null tell but a scumtell - thats 3 now, depending on player personality.

* Backing off targets when he meets resistance. If true this is a big scum tell. I'm not sure I see it though. He backed off Pindicator and Serdoa criticized that, saying Ichabod interpreted Lewwyn's objections as "nobody agrees". While Lewwyn was the only one objecting to Ichabod's case, it is true AFAICT that nobody actively agreed with Ichabod's point. There was one other instance of backing off allegedly, what was that?

You realize that you state here that he made a big scum tell, right? I mean the point is "backing off when he meets resistance". And as you yourself state he met resistance (by Lewwyn) and backed off. And of course nobody actively agreed with him, his attack on Pindicator and his backing off posts are just 1.5 hours apart from each other...

* Laziness.
I think you'll just have to accept that not everybody will spend as much time as you looking things up, Serdoa. Giving Ichabod heat for making a good point just because he doesn't look up all the details seems like a flawed approach to me.

You again have not disproven the actual point novice, that he played lazy and just tested the waters. But if that was the only point, sure, thats something one can dismiss. Added together with the other 4 (!) tells, one of them by your own admission a big scum-tell, I am not sure why we should dismiss this though. Or for that fact his whole play.

Okay, so there are some weak scum tells on Ichabod and some null tells. So why do I think he's village, well my town tell on Ichabod is the one he pointed out himself:

Conclusion, I'm a good wolf. The only time I play is when I'm village. That's a fact.

I just don't think he would play as devil-may-care if he were scum. It's been used before about Ichabod, and has never been proven wrong.

When did I hear the last time "wolf would never do that"? Oh yeah, every game. Wolfs do play badly as well. And maybe Ichabod decided to play loosely this game, found out it doesn't work and nearly got him lynched and now will start to hit us with walls-of-text. Oh wait, that happened already...

[Ichabod]

Nice accusation there, Bigger! I'm acting scummy. Cool. I say I'm acting villagery. What's your retort?

Others are called scummy for repeating the points that were brought forward against a suspect. Now Bigger gets called for NOT repeating the points that were already brought forward. You can't have it both ways.

Serdoa, WTF, read what I'm writing!!! Bigger vote for me was the first vote on me. A million years before your posts. There was no case against me back then and he voted for me because I was scummy. What do you want me to say? Maybe you think he guessed that you were going to post a reasoned case against me and decided to vote a bit earlier?

The heck, man.

[zakalwe]

You wanted to lynch Azza because you believed he is scum and you yourself stated for that flug had to be innocent. So why lynch him? I understand you would want to switch if you are the only voter on Azza. But to the target that HAS to be innocent if your read - that you tried to gather supporters all day - is correct? That makes absolutely no sense, no matter how you tried to explain it now.

That is completely backwards. I never said that, and I don't reason like that. I thought Flug might be innocent, and in that case Azza would be likely scum. I certainly didn't start with the assumption that Azza was scum. You're the one who starts by picking someone as your scum suspect and then labels anyone who disagrees with you as scum, and anyone they vote for as innocent.

I ended up voting for Flug because I thought Ichabod was even more likely to be innocent than Flug. Flug was also an increasingly good policy lynch as the day went on and it became more and more clear that he was deliberately not posting. So that's why I'm not entirely sure where I would have ended up in the end, if Azza had been a viable candidate. What I can say is that earlier in the day, when people were steadily piling votes on to Flug and Ichabod, I would have much preferred to see a bandwagon building on Azza.

Just because I ended up voting for Flug in the end, doesn't mean that Azza's vote for Flug, which was much earlier in the day, isn't suspicious. You have to factor in the context of the votes.

[Serdoa]

Ichabod - having trouble making up your mind?

True, my bad, should have checked the timing Ichabod. Though Bigger did call you out already earlier, see above. Though I agree with you that he could have posted with more substance. Just doesn't change for me the fact that you acted pretty scummy.

(That said, I suspected zak the whole first and half of the second day of WW18 and came around to him being innocent BEFORE I knew that he got poisoned by waterbat. So I might still come around on you too. You could help that by giving me an explanation why you didn't go for pindicator and changed your mind just 1.5 hours after you asked if you should vote for him [and that question alone is considered scummy as you should know].)

[novice]

Gaspar, Serdoa, Rowain, what happened to your suspicions on Meiz?