RB Pitboss #3 [SPOILERS]- Suryavarman II of England

[Cyneheard]

DIM's email response + screenshot

To the Lords of Avalon,


First of all I would like to thank for bringing this up with us before taking action, much appreciated!

There are a number of problems with your proposed city site.
The corn you see on the screenshot lies in Midas' BFC, so you can understand that planting a city there would not be acceptable to us.

Unless you can find another high yield food tile in the fog when moving the planned site, the city would be of low quality for the forseeable future. Added is the undeniable hit you would take to your economy, as a city that far from you capital will have massive upkeep costs.

This does not mean we are not aware of your current lack of metal, which you will need to protect yourselves from the southern nations.

I have therefore come up with an idea that might solve your problem.

We are not the only nation already researching a classical tech. Our friends, the Ottomans, have recently started researching Iron Working, with a current ETA of T72. This will undoubtedly be brought back a couple of turns as new cottages are worked and new cities are founded and connected.

Under the terms of the Cartel agreement, each nation can trade his classical tech as soon as it is researched. Most nations will prefer to wait until a trading partner has something to give them in return.

However, as we are on good terms with the Ottomans, and it would make strategic sense for the Cartel as a whole to do so, we will ask them to advance you Iron Working as soon as they have researched it. Taking into account the number of cities you will have founded by then, and your Creative advantage, the mapmakers will have been very cruel indeed if they didn't put at least one Iron resource nearby.

In my opinion, this will probably allow you to connect a metal resource quicker than if you'd gone for the far away copper you proposed.

If you could give me a couple of days to hammer out the details, I'd be much obliged.
I will contact you as soon as I have a deal.


Highest regards,


Ilios - DIM

[Cyneheard]

Things to put into a response to the HRE:
"We propose that our copper city goes 2S1W of the copper tile, as indicated on our screenshot, and that you build a city 2W1N of the sheep tile, as well as any other cities at that latitude." (If they want something between Midas and BR, they're welcome to it. There isn't a whole lot, although sharing the corn might make for a decent filler)

"While we know 2W minimizes overlap with other cities you have planned, the basic culture we're going to have in Animal Farm is going to weaken that site tremendously, and your city will be touching our borders. We need to put a library in Animal Farm as soon as possible, so that Monarchy can finish in a reasonable amount of time, and are expecting to have a library built there by the end of T65. This means that our borders will pop a second time on T76, and making 5cpt. You would gain 2 grassland forests that you wouldn't otherwise have, and that will be it. The other 3 tiles that you'd add to your BFC will be under our cultural control for a long time."

I'm willing to compromise on one of the two positions: Either we move our city to 2S of the copper, or they put their city 2W of the sheep. Definitely not both.

[haphazard1]

What are we thinking now for the copper city? On the plains hill for the extra hammer and defense? Or 1S of the plains hill to include more river tiles and the spices? The extra river grass tiles will be useful, but the plains hill certainly has its benefits as well.

In the northwest by Animal Farm, I do not like the 2W of the sheep site they are proposing. Overlapping our BFC is not acceptable -- they do not want us to do it by Midas' Folly, we should not allow it for Animal Farm.

Do we know exactly where their capital is? I am still wondering just how far they planted Midas' Folly. My suspicion is that Midas' Folly is about equal distance between our capitals, and this sheep/wine site NW of Animal Farm is going to be closer to London than it will be to their capital; i.e. they are pushing into our territory. I think we need to know where their capital is -- if the copper city is not closer to their capital than it is to London, then we do not "owe" them anything in the west. We may decide to allow it in the interests of good will, but I do not think we owe them concessions for claiming territory which is not theirs to begin with.

OK, see that Cyneheard has posted more while I was writing this. As above, I do not feel the 2W of the sheep site is acceptable at all. Also, we can plant 1W of the copper (plains hill or 1S of it) as we choose. Those spices are ours.

If we mention additional settlements at that latitude, it should be clear that such cities should not overlap the BFC of our cities or proposed cities -- no settling one off the spices, for example.

Where is their capital, and why are they pushing south like this? They should have land in other directions they should be settling, not trying to cramp us for space.

[Cyneheard]

This is a very small map. Their capital is probably about 16 tiles north of us, depending on how they might have moved. A 2S of copper city is 8 tiles north of our capital, and likely 8 tiles from their capital.
Relative to the sheep, 2W1N is also 8 tiles north of our capital. 2W would only be 7.

Remember, this map's 64x64, with 4 "rows" of civs, either 4 or 5 in number.

[Cyneheard]

Something else we can propose:

They mentioned helping the Aztec out, who need chariots to counter Incan axes (and trying to defend with archers against the Inca might be slightly difficult in the long run: 1 Quechua suiciding per archer + 1 axe per archer = dead archers). The Aztec are north of them. So while they can donate chariots to the front, we can't (the Aztec are also about 32 tiles south of us). We could gift them a chariot for their defense, while they send their chariots to the Aztec. It's a counter-proposal, or a sidecar for when we try to help out or Cartel friends off in the far north.

[haphazard1]

OK, the approximately 16 spaces makes sense. But with 2S of the copper being 8N of London, I do not see as we are really intruding into their territory. We are right around halfway. The site 2W1N of the sheep would also be right around halfway, and seems fair enough to me.

Overlapping the BFC of our second city is just too close (my opinion). And it is not like AF is a huge distance from London. I would not base the case on our culture causing them problems, but just on our BFC being ours. They do not want us overlapping Midas' Folly, and we do not want them overlapping AF.

I like the chariot idea, and we can certainly propose that to them as a way to get some help to our fellow cartel members. Essentially we each contribute 1/2 of a chariot, but it gets there much faster than we could possible manage. Maybe we could even do 2 chariots, if they are willing. Would cost us some hammers, but could generate solid good will for us.

Interesting bit about France -- HRE was not happy with them earlier, and now they are in? I am thinking it is less about covering our + HRE eastern border and more about allies against agg Rome to the NE. Big threat against HRE, not so much against us (at least for now).

Or is Rome part of the cartel as well? We need a full list of who is in and who is not.

[Cyneheard]

So, we can make the capital-distance argument, and mention the chariot deal? Do you want to write up a draft proposal, hap? I've got to run, I'll be around later tonight.

Teams in Cartel:
India/Egypt/Portugal/Ottomans/Aztec/HRE/Carthage/England/France

This means teams NOT in the deal:
Mali (1S, slightly west)
Babylon (1S, 1E)
Maya (1S,1W)
Byzantium (1S,2E)

Rome (2N, 1E of us)
Inca (2N, 1W??? Aztec are 2N)
Sumeria (Who knows)

[antisocialmunky]

Well I made a map of everything with all the BFCs, city sites, and resources(ugly pink thingi) based on Cyneheard's estimate of a 64*64 map. So now we can talk concretely about border stuff. We are black and at the center.



HRE's Cap is probably a min of 3N and somthing E of Midas since we can't see their culture on the peaks. I guess those two are in it against AGG Rome... This begs the question who in our NE and HRE's Eastern Neighbor? Krill is W of HRE right? Or is he 2 West? If he is 2 west then we know why France took forever to get contacts and where Lobo was. Either that or the make is more or less some sort of staggered hexagonal territory lookie thing(Settler of Catan).

From my map, it looks like Mali and HRE are about the same distance(we are slightly closer to Mali since their 2nd city overlaps). So unless HRE really put Midas ~1.5 rings out, that is probably their copper. I think we should offer them a little more since I don't think they would think it fair to them...

[Cyneheard]

"Offering them a little more" out of fairness: Meh, this is a competitive game. I want to give them a deal they'll accept, but it needs to also serve our interests. Overlapping a BFC is crazy.

My proposal is:
We settle the copper city 2S1W
They settle their sheep city 2W1N
We send them a chariot to support them military; they can then send one to help out our Aztec friends. This chariot will have 3XP.

Question: What's more important: Getting our city 2S1W of the copper (spices + river), or having their city 2W1N of the sheep, instead of 2W? I think our city location's more important, but wonder which one we'd be more willing to give up.

2W is crazy for cultural purposes. I do want to point that out: We're going to have our borders pop long before they settle. The chariot is 30H, and the chops are worth 60H, but a long time from now.

So, my draft:

To the Principality of DIM,

Our proposal is as follows:
1) We settle 2S1W of the copper tile
2) You settle 2W1N of the sheep
3) We gift you 1 chariot with 3XP, no later than T75 to Midas' Folly. Especially if you are going to support the Aztec, this is one way we can make sure that you have sufficient defenses. More units might be possible, but would have to be at a later date.

Animal Farm's borders are going to pop a second time on T75-76, since we're going to be putting a library in there very soon. A city 2W of the sheep will be very culturally cramped, and having a city overlapping BFCs with our 2nd city is too close. We are aware that this might lead to extra overlap with your other cities, but a city 2W of the sheep is going to gain very little in extra territory.

*Usual Salutation Follows*

[haphazard1]

Nice map/graph, ASM. OK, assuming the HRE capital is 16 tiles north of our capital (but we moved 1S, didn't we?) then the BFC of their capital and the BFC of Midas' Folly would be directly adjacent. If they are one more tile from our move, there might be a small gap.

So they have their first ring (Midas' Folly) and we have our first ring (AF and BR). Our copper city (we need a name -- Copper Wool? Spiced Mutton?) would be in the "in between" lands to the east, and their Sheep/Wine city would be about the same to the west.

I think what we are proposing is a quite reasonable deal, especially with the chariot added in. Add the fact that the copper city is our only (known so far) source of metal -- we ARE going to settle it, whether HRE likes it or not.

Cyneheard's message looks good to me.

What are the workers' tasks for the next couple turns? Don't want to mess up Cyneheard's planned micro.