RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Zara of the Ottomans

[Sockboy]

Turn rolled again, t91 now.

We need one more turn of not working the gold to get some more growth in Brythunia, then we can work the gold a turn whilst growing to start working a new farm there. Then we should have enough food surplus at size 4 to work the gold continuously. I wasn't planning on whipping Brythunia anytime soon, we're still in growth mode. There's at least one more chop to happen, which can feed into the courthouse. Then we'll need to think about whether we want to whip out the Hammam later. But that's quite someway down the road I think.

Regarding research, we'll need a small amount of gold on t94 (15ish) I think then full funding for t95 & t96 (40ish gpt @ 100%). 100g is hopefully a conservative estimate (I still expect it to be around 80g). Fingers crossed that Portugal can get Currency or we're all going to be delayed a bit longer.

Question: Are we still using scientists in Ophir or do we want to pop a merchant? If we want scientists then we can start working them pretty soon (the first two at least), otherwise I'll have to shuffle another worker or two up there to help lay down cottages. What is the ETA for all the other great people, if we're shooting for a GS maybe we can avoid a switch to Caste Systems?

[WarriorKnight]

Question: Are we still using scientists in Ophir or do we want to pop a merchant? If we want scientists then we can start working them pretty soon (the first two at least), otherwise I'll have to shuffle another worker or two up there to help lay down cottages. What is the ETA for all the other great people, if we're shooting for a GS maybe we can avoid a switch to Caste Systems?

We are supposed to get a GS. The ETA's of the other GP are:

Portugal: Getting a GM on T97, bulbing CS.
HRE: Getting a GS on T104ish, probably bulbing philo
Us: GS on T??? , probably bulbing paper (I wonder if we can research it quicker though, bulb edu instead)
Byz: GM on T???, bulbing Guilds

Ideally, we get one as close as possible to T104 to avoid having to hold everyone else up on guilds, although it also depends on the ETA for Feudalism and Machinery. I'll chase up CUDDLE on what the ETA's for everything are.

In terms of defense, I'd like it if we had a few archers around (in Zingara mainly). Although unfortunately, Aquilonia is busy with HA's and Cimmeria with spears. Didn't you say that Zingara had a space at some point to crank out some stuff?

Also, I think that NC near Zingara is a sentry, since it's just circling the city. Dunno if they plan to attack us or not, but still not really the best of news. If we launch an attack, we'll have to launch it from Nemedia or Aquilonia.

DIM's worker is (according to your sign at least) going to chop a forest next turn. Problem is that it isn't in Nemedia's radius and is going to be in the DIM's city radius. Could we cancel it?

I wonder if we are getting to focused on war and not enough on expanding? Maybe we should convert to a religion at some point since otherwise OR doesn't get max potential? (Although which one is debatable, and we'll have to spend even more time in anarchy). Maybe we should also consider a new city sometime soon? Some possibilities are the fur spot (although it's completely useless otherwise), a pig/spice spot up north near Ophir, or a spot with the iron (although that depends on what's in the fog, I'm sending the nearby chariot to have a quick look at what's there). Settling around T100 would probably be a good idea.

Your current growth plan has expired. Could you post a new one? (for Emergencies)

[Sockboy]

Ok, it's t91 now, so if we need a GS by t104 we'll need to be running 3/4 scientists and not just two. Running two the soonest we can get it is t108 I think. So it looks like a revolt to Caste Systems is necessary.

Buildwise Zingara is set to finish it's Hammam pretty soon, it could either go onto a courthouse or archers. It could also do a settler, but...

Where are we making our next settler from? Aquilonia is the best candidate, but really we want it to grow a bit bigger first, at 25hpt it can crank a settler in 4 turns. It's also as you mentioned on HAs. I just want to question if we still want to be cranking HAs non-stop since we're getting close to guilds. Would it maybe be better to get some axes/archers/spears here and then get set to crank Knights? If so we can probably afford to squeeze a settler out of here sooner rather than later. Similarly, do we want to wait for feudalism to come in to build longbows rather than archers?

Regarding the new city, I agree we should be thinking about another one around t100. We're ORG so we need to be bigger than the FIN civs to keep up, I think we're leading the city count, let's try and stay out in front there. Earlier I know we were keen for the furs site, but it's pretty weak really other than having furs. It's also very close to DIM, and might be difficult to defend (particularly if we want to make it a commerce site). Pigs/spices is probably better, although I think Ruff has his eye on that, so we might want to talk to him before we move forward there. I tried to hunt up the big group maps again to see what was near the iron, but looks like noone had scouted that before the map-exchange so we need to uncover it. (On the topic of being close to DIM did anyone else get a weird partial email from them mentioning a GA bomb?)

Converting to a religion should still be on the cards, but let's hold off on choosing for the moment, Krill landing the Apostolic Palace could make Hinduism tempting. We should probably try and decide which one before we settle our next city though.

RE: DIM worker, I thought we'd get the hammers while we could, if you think it's going to cause border tension, then we can move, it's only just moved onto the forest this turn, so we only lose one worker turn. Before anyone moves it though, I'd be interested to know how many hammers 3rd tier forests provide to the city, I can never remember that.

Re: Micro plan, I'll update it as soon as I can, but it'll still be a couple of days. RL is pretty hectic here ATM.

[Pegasus]

Ok guys, i'll try to stop lurking on here and chip in with a few posts myself At least give the lurkers something to laugh at anyhow, with my crazy paranoia

Where are we making our next settler from? Aquilonia is the best candidate, but really we want it to grow a bit bigger first, at 25hpt it can crank a settler in 4 turns.

We are not really struggling for happies anywhere so I think if we can get a settler out within 4 turns at Aquilonia, then we should do that.

It's also as you mentioned on HAs. I just want to question if we still want to be cranking HAs non-stop since we're getting close to guilds. Would it maybe be better to get some axes/archers/spears here and then get set to crank Knights? If so we can probably afford to squeeze a settler out of here sooner rather than later. Similarly, do we want to wait for feudalism to come in to build longbows rather than archers?

With Numidian Cavalry scouting around our lands, it might be wise to get a few spears up just in case. What are we looking at upgrade cost wise from a HA to a knight per unit? Any lurkers know? I don't think this is a spoilerish question, its more a " I can't be bothered to go into WB and find out really ".

I would also wait for Feudalism for the longbows.

Regarding the new city, I agree we should be thinking about another one around t100. We're ORG so we need to be bigger than the FIN civs to keep up, I think we're leading the city count, let's try and stay out in front there. Earlier I know we were keen for the furs site, but it's pretty weak really other than having furs. It's also very close to DIM, and might be difficult to defend (particularly if we want to make it a commerce site). Pigs/spices is probably better, although I think Ruff has his eye on that, so we might want to talk to him before we move forward there. I tried to hunt up the big group maps again to see what was near the iron, but looks like noone had scouted that before the map-exchange so we need to uncover it.

I thought we were sending a unit over to uncover the fog to the west???
I think we should wait to see whats over there before we decide, but agree that we shouldnt settle Furs south as this is too dangerous and open to attack atm. Also agree we contact Ruff and at least let him know, if we choose to go Pigs/Spices to the North. I still vote West as it should be closer so less maintenance and although I doubt Krill is planning on expanding too far north, our culture borders would give us some key info in any case (hopefully).

(On the topic of being close to DIM did anyone else get a weird partial email from them mentioning a GA bomb?)

That was Willem of Portugal wasn't it not DIM. Confused the hell out of me too until I found a chat between Mukha (I think) and WK. They suggested a city site where we should GA bomb and split Carthage apart, prime for attacks. Needless to say we are open to a similar attack ourselves I believe a few squares south of Aquilonia, but think this is a highly unlikely play by either us or Carthage.

[WarriorKnight]

Where are we making our next settler from? Aquilonia is the best candidate, but really we want it to grow a bit bigger first, at 25hpt it can crank a settler in 4 turns. It's also as you mentioned on HAs. I just want to question if we still want to be cranking HAs non-stop since we're getting close to guilds. Would it maybe be better to get some axes/archers/spears here and then get set to crank Knights? If so we can probably afford to squeeze a settler out of here sooner rather than later. Similarly, do we want to wait for feudalism to come in to build longbows rather than archers?

Well, waiting to get Longbows in 15 turns when they attack in 10 wouldn't go very well. I do see your point though. Maybe we should build axes in Aquilonia instead.

Regarding the new city, I agree we should be thinking about another one around t100. We're ORG so we need to be bigger than the FIN civs to keep up, I think we're leading the city count, let's try and stay out in front there. Earlier I know we were keen for the furs site, but it's pretty weak really other than having furs. It's also very close to DIM, and might be difficult to defend (particularly if we want to make it a commerce site). Pigs/spices is probably better, although I think Ruff has his eye on that, so we might want to talk to him before we move forward there. I tried to hunt up the big group maps again to see what was near the iron, but looks like noone had scouted that before the map-exchange so we need to uncover it.

Yeah, I was thinking the nearby chariot could jump onto the hill nearby and see if there is anything nearby the iron.

RE: DIM worker, I thought we'd get the hammers while we could, if you think it's going to cause border tension, then we can move, it's only just moved onto the forest this turn, so we only lose one worker turn. Before anyone moves it though, I'd be interested to know how many hammers 3rd tier forests provide to the city, I can never remember that.

Well, it doesn't really make much difference. Nemedia is going to control that tile for a while anyway.

We are not really struggling for happies anywhere so I think if we can get a settler out within 4 turns at Aquilonia, then we should do that.

Well, we can't get it out now since we aren't at 25hpt yet. Although we don't want it ATM so it could probably wait until then.

With Numidian Cavalry scouting around our lands, it might be wise to get a few spears up just in case. What are we looking at upgrade cost wise from a HA to a knight per unit? Any lurkers know? I don't think this is a spoilerish question, its more a " I can't be bothered to go into WB and find out really ".

I would also wait for Feudalism for the longbows.

Upgrading is usually a terrible strategy unless you really need it (kinda like whipping your cities to the ground). Using gold on that means gold not used on researching, so we would have to inform CUDDLE as well. I would just to keep it around as a anti-barb unit if nothing else.

Waiting is fine, although it's a bit risky.

I thought we were sending a unit over to uncover the fog to the west???

We were, but that was before the barbs all showed up. I think it's quiet enough to take a peak at what's there now.

I think we should wait to see whats over there before we decide, but agree that we shouldnt settle Furs south as this is too dangerous and open to attack atm. Also agree we contact Ruff and at least let him know, if we choose to go Pigs/Spices to the North. I still vote West as it should be closer so less maintenance and although I doubt Krill is planning on expanding too far north, our culture borders would give us some key info in any case (hopefully).

Well, west depends on the food situation. Can't answer anymore until we find out what's there. Pig/Spices is probably still in our radius of control, but it still might be a good idea to contact him about it.

That was Willem of Portugal wasn't it not DIM. Confused the hell out of me too until I found a chat between Mukha (I think) and WK. They suggested a city site where we should GA bomb and split Carthage apart, prime for attacks. Needless to say we are open to a similar attack ourselves I believe a few squares south of Aquilonia, but think this is a highly unlikely play by either us or Carthage.

Yeah, Mukha suggested that we could found a city on those tiles to cripple Carthage. It's kinda a good idea for CUDDLE but not for us since that is a pink dot if I ever saw one (estimate of 15gpt upkeep), and the city would have no other worth use.

In other news, Babylon managed to find Valeria with the axe that we were meant to be contacting, so we have now meet everyone (posted in the public player thread too). Of course we are 10th but ah well. Sent a quick greeting mail to Babylon.

[WarriorKnight]

RE: DIM worker, I thought we'd get the hammers while we could, if you think it's going to cause border tension, then we can move, it's only just moved onto the forest this turn, so we only lose one worker turn. Before anyone moves it though, I'd be interested to know how many hammers 3rd tier forests provide to the city, I can never remember that.

Well, just recieved this:

Hi guys,

It would seem you are about to chop a forest which is in our newest city's BFC. As we plan on gaining back those tiles at least, would it be possible to leave the chop to us?

Thanks in advance,

Regards,

Ilios - DIM

Refusing something as tiny as this would be silly (It is their forest anyway and it isn't vital) so I sent back this:

DIM

Hmmm, I wasn't aware of this. Not to worry though, we will ensure that we will not be chopping the forest in question.

Enough Chopping!
WarriorKnight of A4

Note for future refenence: if we want to do something like this, we should do it earlier so that they can't see it (maybe some 5-10 turns ago). It's still a pretty shady move though.

[WarriorKnight]

Time to put some pictures in to make up for recent posts:

T92 in pictures:

DIM founded their border city and, well....



Kinda cramped, but silly that we can't see the city tile. Ah well, at least this side is secure.

Also, the Zingara's borders popped and the nearby chariot went to go see what was there, the result:



Yay, sheep. 1S of where the chariot is seems to be an obvious spot but I haven't looked in great detail.

I decided to send the chariot in Brythunia to the nearby hill, the result:



Hmmmm, Inca are kinda close. But I guess everyone is close together on this map.

Also, the 2 other sites in question for our next cities:





Also, Ruff now has 4 cities. He's founded a city on the wheat/pig spot to the W of pig/spices. I think its worth bringing up our intention of settling there to him.

[WarriorKnight]

Diplo update:

Lots of messages been going around about the tech situation. I don't want to copy every message here (plus someone else probably has them in their spoiler thread, tell me if this isn't so) so I'll just do the important ones.

Hi guys,

Little update, we are now running 4 scientists and have an eta of 9 turns for our first one (T101). I had arranged with Byz for them to do the CS bulb instead of us as it became apparent that we weren't going to receive a religion from anyone else any time soon. So we are hoping to get Taoism from the Philo bulb so we can use Pacifism effectively. We can still run 4 merchants (or even 5 with starvation giving eta of 7t bulb CS T99) instead of scientists if it turns out Byz can't get a quick eta for their one but we would really prefer not to. We are still one of the few civs in a diplomatic position secure enough to use Pacifism. Would it be possible to arrange a back up supply of a religion of some description if our philo bulb falls through?

Our eta for feudalism is now oscillating between 15 and 16 turns but we will need funding to complete it. I think we have 156 gold left in bank and -31 expenses a turn and we are generating 58 bpt. It's looking like quite a few people will shortly need funding. Babylon's eta for currency was supposed to be this turn but it appears to have been delayed.

So a quick summary of the state of our researchers this turn (T92) then:

Portugal: Feudalism (15t), Scientist - philo bulb (9t), 156gp in bank -31gpt, will need funding in 6 turns time.
Ottomans: Currency (4-6T, T96-98) will need funding to complete.
Byzantium: Machinery (T??), Merchant - CS bulb (T??)
HRE: Metal Casting (T99)
Aztecs: Monarchy (9t or 19T)
Incans: Finished Priesthood saving money?
Rome: Finished monotheism saving money?
India: Aesthetics (4t? T96?)

I think Inca, Rome and Aztecs now have all the prerequisites necessary for us to gift them the techs we are researching. Except for monarchy but because our eta for feud is far enough away I think Aztecs should perhaps fund someone instead of researching? We still need another civ on scientists (paper) and another on merchants (guilds). The guilds dude will have to be our strongest researcher as a merchant bulb only gets 2/3rds of the way there.

Thoughts?

Mukha
CBE

So you're running scientists now? It doesn't make a big deal but we
need to get this ironed out ASAP.

If we still need funding for some civs, perhaps we should be saving
gold for a bit after we get currency. Because of that, we could head
for a GM instead and be the one to bulb guilds for the group. HRE
could head to construction after they finish MC and bulb paper with a
GS (or we could swap roles, actually that might be best, I dunno).

If you miss Taoism, I don't see how you could get a religion anytime
soon. Krill controls most of them and being a PAT member his
co-operation is unknown. Ruff is quite far away from you so that's
unlikely too. If you want Taoism, might I suggest you start hiring
scientists ASAP since PAT might have their eye on it as well.

I think Ruff should head for Monarchy. The question is when should he?
Probably after currency is best since we can have much more cash
available by then.


Enough Talking!
WarriorKnight of A4

CUDDLE,

HRE will only start running Great People on T97, and will get one on T104. If Byzantium cannot get a Great Merchant before that date, then I suggest we take it and bulb Civil Service (also, does a bulb knock out the entire cost of CS?), to gain access to Bureaucracy asap. Otherwise we'll be running Scientists to speed up our MC research.

I think it is a good idea for Ottomans to run max gold after discovering Currency. If that is the case, then it might be a good idea for them to run merchants for the Guilds bulb. Should the HRE research prove stronger than Ottomans', they could alway gift the Merchant to us to bulb the tech.

I second Ottomans' proposal for Aztec or Rome to head for Monarchy as soon as Currency is available. If Aztec can build/chop/whip a Market in its Holy City pretty soon (provided the Prophet has created the Shrine), then I think it would make more sense for Aztec to remain a gold provider, and have Rome head for Monarchy instead.
Sandover, could you provide us with an ETA at 100% and break even research?

As for our Metal Casting research, we have a current ETA of 9 turns, but this will decrease soon enough. We currently have enough money in the bank for 2-3 turns of 100% research. It would seem that Portugal has enough gold in the bank to last at least 6 turns. Provided someone of CUDDLE does get Currency, initially, I would suggest funding of HRE and Ottoman research, until Ottomans discover Currency (T97), wherupon Rome or Aztec start research for Monarchy, and Ottomans become funders (while running Merchants?). Once Metal Casting is done (T97-100), HRE could head for Construction or Literacy (we will soon have a HE unit) immediately, while waiting for a GS to pop Paper.

As Inca seems to be at its expanding limit at the moment, would it be possible for them to provide cheap settlers to the other teams?

So to recap:

- if possible, could Byzantium provide an ETA for their Great Merchant?
- could Rome give an ETA of Monarchy at 100% research?

Yours,

Ilios - DIM

Our current plan is Currency, then save gold. We will be hiring merchants and do the Guilds bulb (since scientists are useless if saving gold). However, this depends on the ETA of paper/Feudalism and Machinery. Byz are trying to come up with an estimate on when they can get those techs. Feudalism ETA is T107 currently so let's hope that Byz take a bit longer so we can pull a double revolt into Bureocracy/caste system.

Also, I've changed my mind on this:

I just want to question if we still want to be cranking HAs non-stop since we're getting close to guilds. Would it maybe be better to get some axes/archers/spears here and then get set to crank Knights? Similarly, do we want to wait for feudalism to come in to build longbows rather than archers?

I'd rather have some army that is obsolete rather than no army. Since we can't "save" production on military, I think we should continue to train military, although a break for settler/forge would be appropriate. At the least, we might not be able to build enough knights to finish the job whereas HA's are cheaper and less valuable.

[Sockboy]

Ok, since we're playing nice I won't chop the forest. I didn't want to chop it earlier since it was outside our borders and I thought that reduced the hammers we received. TBH I'm not sure if that's true or not, does anyone know? For the record that forest gives us 24 hammers if we do chop it.

Oh and I thought this was kinda cool...



We're #1! Let's see how long this lasts, although it probably helps that a few civs are in anarchy. Oh and that the French have been eliminated. Another one down...

City roundup:

Since we're not sure how many HAs we want I think we'll queue one more out of Aquilonia (that'll give us a total of three), but I think we want a different type of unit here after that, maybe archers? What unit composition do we want in an attack stack? And for defence?

Nemedia is still on it's hammam, the chop should finish it. It'll slow build a courthouse next I think since city maintenance is already around 5gpt here, we might want to consider whipping it just prior to leaving slavery.

Zingara is finishing it's Hammam in a couple of turns, and it'll have almost a complete chop in overflow. Do we want to start a courthouse here or get some more military? City maintenance is around 3.5 gpt.

Cimmeria is on military for the moment, and should stay on it for quite some time. If we decide on a general military balance between spears/axes/archers then I can work out which units it should be building. I think we want a third spear out of here next though.

Brythunia finishes it's library next turn, I'll start it on a courthouse next. The other choice is Hammam, but courthouse is quicker and more useful immediately.

Ophir finishes a library in two turns, I want it to start on a Hammam next, but it'll be (very) slow unless we whip it, which we won't. What we build here next doesn't really matter since all we want out of here right now is growth and a Great Person.

General comments:

If we're getting a GM we can't run merchants/scientists early. Provided we don't want to delay Currency then we can only revolt to Caste Systems on t98, which should get a GM out of Ophir around t105ish running 5 merchants. We'll need Ophir to get to size 8 by t98 and will still end up at -1f for 6 turns. The current happyness is sufficient to do this.

Revolting to Bureau at the same time as Cast Systems would be pretty awesome, although I think we'll still want to switch back to slavery after we've popped the merchant. Changing religion should probably also wait until after guilds has popped.

We should probably spread Ruff's religion to Cimmeria first, although if we settle a new city around the same time then maybe we can use it for an even speedier border pop? Settling near the iron would let us build the infra pretty quickly with a few chops, then it could pump out missionaries for the other cities... Anyway before we decide completely, let's explore a bit more near the sheep. One settler near the sheep and another up for pig spices are probably good ideas at the moment. Settling in what may be about to become a War zone is probably not a great idea...

Edit: Final thought... Espionage is almost complete on the Incans, who should we be shooting for next? Who's the nearest PAT member we don't have ESP on?

[WarriorKnight]

Ok, since we're playing nice I won't chop the forest. I didn't want to chop it earlier since it was outside our borders and I thought that reduced the hammers we received. TBH I'm not sure if that's true or not, does anyone know? For the record that forest gives us 24 hammers if we do chop it.

Yeah that's true. Maybe just leave it in this situation? Either way, no biggie

We're #1! Let's see how long this lasts,

Yay! Although now that Carthage have currency, we're No.2 again.

Since we're not sure how many HAs we want I think we'll queue one more out of Aquilonia (that'll give us a total of three), but I think we want a different type of unit here after that, maybe archers? What unit composition do we want in an attack stack? And for defence?

I think we might want a settler out here soon. Other than that, a few archers and axes would be nice.

Composition of attack stacks? Let's worry about defending first. In an attack, General Sunrise should be coming up with a plan.

Nemedia is still on it's hammam, the chop should finish it. It'll slow build a courthouse next I think since city maintenance is already around 5gpt here, we might want to consider whipping it just prior to leaving slavery.

Sounds good.

Zingara is finishing it's Hammam in a couple of turns, and it'll have almost a complete chop in overflow. Do we want to start a courthouse here or get some more military? City maintenance is around 3.5 gpt.

Dunno. I think a courthouse is kinda not worth it ATM since we can get gold from others. We will still want one eventually but currently not worth it IMO. Maybe Hindu missionaries for AP bonus?

Cimmeria is on military for the moment, and should stay on it for quite some time. If we decide on a general military balance between spears/axes/archers then I can work out which units it should be building. I think we want a third spear out of here next though.

Yep

Brythunia finishes it's library next turn, I'll start it on a courthouse next. The other choice is Hammam, but courthouse is quicker and more useful immediately.

Agree

Ophir finishes a library in two turns, I want it to start on a Hammam next, but it'll be (very) slow unless we whip it, which we won't. What we build here next doesn't really matter since all we want out of here right now is growth and a Great Person.

Yeah, sucks for infra but bulbs come first.

If we're getting a GM we can't run merchants/scientists early. Provided we don't want to delay Currency then we can only revolt to Caste Systems on t98, which should get a GM out of Ophir around t105ish running 5 merchants. We'll need Ophir to get to size 8 by t98 and will still end up at -1f for 6 turns. The current happyness is sufficient to do this.

It all depends on when Byzantium come with a suitable ETA for Machinery/GP

Revolting to Bureau at the same time as Cast Systems would be pretty awesome, although I think we'll still want to switch back to slavery after we've popped the merchant. Changing religion should probably also wait until after guilds has popped.

Yeah, although I don't know if we can go to both at the same time though.

We should probably spread Ruff's religion to Cimmeria first, although if we settle a new city around the same time then maybe we can use it for an even speedier border pop? Settling near the iron would let us build the infra pretty quickly with a few chops, then it could pump out missionaries for the other cities... Anyway before we decide completely, let's explore a bit more near the sheep. One settler near the sheep and another up for pig spices are probably good ideas at the moment. Settling in what may be about to become a War zone is probably not a great idea...

Well, aside from the fur, it sucks. Maybe we shouldn't go there at all. Otherwise my suggested spot gives 4 hills + iron + stone with sheep and some river grass. I like it a lot, and we should probably settle sometime soon.

I was going to suggest to put the missionary in a new city (border pop in 4 turns )

Edit: Final thought... Espionage is almost complete on the Incans, who should we be shooting for next? Who's the nearest PAT member we don't have ESP on?

Well, we have all our neighbours except Ruff. I'm thinking Babylon since they are fairly high on the score chart for some reason, although we might have to divert if someone we already have EP's for decides to start spending on us again.