RB Pitboss #1 SPOILER - Hatshepsut / India

[novice]

You may want to chop forests outside the BFC to speed up the NP city. Not sure if it's worth it, though. But if you do go that route, it may require delaying settling neighbouring cities.

Edit: Triple crosspost, but yeah, what they said.

[regoarrarr]

That is a good point about chopping forests outside the BFC, which I think is a good reason to decide on the city quickly, so I know which forests can go

[regoarrarr]

Reply back from Yaz

Hey,

I can imagine this came as a bit of a surprise and that's unfortunate.
I promised you an explanation though and here it is.

Before you contacted us to negotiate we already had plans, and Krill
had had that Island marked out for a long time, to settle. We
actually had a settler ready to go. That was placed on hold while we
negotiated and it was in good faith. However this changed after our
long chat on these negotiations. Your insistence of grabbing one of
our fish while offering absolutely nothing in return was upsetting.
After that I took that chat transcript back to Krill to see how we
could better approach this and after much back and forth it was
decided that the simplest way to settle this dispute was simply to act
and bring it to an end. As I said we had no intentions of settling
these areas and it's certainly not an ideal position for us but we
were pushed into it by your insistence of grabbing so much in the area
that we feel was not yours to take.

[regoarrarr]

Reply off to Yaz

Hey Yaz,

Thanks for the email. Don't worry about the delay - those things happen.

I guess what bothers / disappoints me the most is the finality of it. You have planted the city and there's really no going back from that. You're not going to let me raze it, or trade me the city, and I don't even really want it there anyways since it is 2 tiles away from sunrise's planned city. So like it or not, it is there to say. In a way that was probably your point, but certainly you can't expect me to love this kind of "end" to a negotiation?

It all really screams of a hyper-aggressive Krill move (hi Krill! :-) ). In fact, before I got your email, I commented in my thread that I knew Krill had to be behind it, which of course was validated in the reasoning of your email.

But again, what's done is done. There's not a whole lot I can do about it, which was probably your (Krill's) whole point. I do find it somewhat odd that (at least in my recollection), the only thing I was asking for in "exchange" for your taking both the fish that are 1 tile away from a landmass which you had agreed was mine, was the gold from the barb city that, again, was on land you had agreed was mine. And even that - I proposed getting all the gold with the idea that you'd counter with something like splitting the gold, which I'd clearly have agreed to. So from my perspective, it appears that you have trashed our relationship for 30 pieces of gold...

I'm saddened at what this has done to our relationship. I know that Krill has mentioned to me in the past, when I was under threat of an Imhotep attack, that he couldn't see how anything Imhotep might do to me would be bad for him (now you). I disagree - I think that you need people like me to provide an acceptable counter to your civ. I am not sure you realize just how big of a threat everyone else thinks that you are, and the target that potentially paints on your back.

I hope that the rest of our relationship can go to a better place.

And also email to shadyforce. THE WHEELS ARE IN MOTION BABY!!

I know that you said that you were going to respond to my email later on, but I am jumping the gun! I spent a bit of time thinking about your earlier proposal (basically you, me, Daniel, Kodii and either Sunrise / Broker), and wanted to give you some of my thoughts on it. I have been warming up to it a bit.

So, a few thoughts, which hopefully will be somewhat coherent.

* As I mentioned in my earlier email, I can't stab Elkad in the back like this. I was thinking that to be fair, I would need to formally resign from the G5, and give a 10t (or some length) NAP to the other folks. (I am assuming that our new group would all covertly sign NAPs among other things). And honestly, I don't know how much military assistance I will be able to provide vs. Elkad. I know that sounds kind of weaselly, and I really don't mean it to be. I will provide what I can, but if we shake things up as we talked about, and Krill / Yaz is on the "out" side, in addition to my minor Imhotep problem that I'll likely continue to have, I am going to have a MAJOR Krill problem and will likely need to focus the majority of my units in that direction.

* For the reasons you mentioned in your email, I choose Sunrise over Broker. It may be worth discussing even bringing both of them on board - I see pros and cons to doing that. On the one hand, it turns us into 6v5 instead of 5v6, and eliminates some of our matchup problems (especially for Kodii), and robs the other guys of probably their strongest techer (besides Elkad). On the other hand, it does allow another potential strong civ into the "winners" group. Anyways, I have already had some preliminary (vague general) discussions with Sunrise and I think he will be on board. I don't know if you have talked to Daniel or Kodii at all, but it may be time to open some talks with them.

* Not least because my espionage reports me that Kodii is likely to finish Liberalism this turn. I don't know what he is planning on taking with it (though I assume that you do), but obviously if we're going to change the alliance structure, we want to make sure that those techs do not end up in the wrong hands

* One thought I had was that I am kind of switching from one 5v6 alliance to another. Now, this switch does give us 1) surprise, 2) civs with generally bigger armies and 3) better techers, but it was just a thought that I had. That's why I mentioned potentially bringing Broker on board as well, though I do understand the disadvantages in doing that.

Well, those are some of my initial thoughts. It does seem that time is of the essence here so hopefully I'll hear from you soon

I have spent much of the day chatting with sunrise basically about the contents of the email to shady and if/how that might help us, and that email is kind of the result of that chat. We shall see what shady / dsp / kodii say, but it appears that things are heating up!

[Sullla]

Well, well, well. That is indeed an interesting development. No clue if you can sucessfully pull this off, but very much worth watching. I agree that from your point of view, doing something about Krill has to be top priority. He's getting all the benefits of the alliance system and paying none of the costs.

[regoarrarr]

Well, well, well. That is indeed an interesting development. No clue if you can sucessfully pull this off, but very much worth watching. I agree that from your point of view, doing something about Krill has to be top priority. He's getting all the benefits of the alliance system and paying none of the costs.

Uh oh - the last time Sullla came out of the woodwork I got a major beatdown put on me :neenernee

I'll keep you posted!

[regoarrarr]

Chat with Krill

Krill: Yeah
Hi regoarrarr
me: krill or yaz?
Krill: Krill
me: gotcha
Krill: Perhaps I should have just said, the Evil One
me: lol
it's not that i think you're evil, or bad, or even a bad player (quite the opposite actually)
i just think that you're more aggressive than most
not that being aggressive is an opposite of "bad play"
Krill: True
Sent at 2:49 PM on Wednesday
Krill: btw
it wasn't 30 pieces of gold
it was 11
me: for the barb city?
Krill: if you want 6 gold, be my guest and request it
yeah
me: 11 total?
Krill: 11 gold total
me: nice
Krill: stingy barbs
me: jerks
Sent at 2:51 PM on Wednesday
me: well i don't guess the 5.5 gold matters as much as the fact that now we have raging rivers or whatever placed in a very awkward spot for both of us (and sunrise)
Krill: Well, I think you can tell from teh awkward location no one really wants a city there
or wanted, at any rate
me: right
Krill: I suppose you'll understand hte significance of the comparrison to Zero?
me: sort of
Sent at 2:55 PM on Wednesday
Krill: Care to answer with the old Kaz response?
me: about how many units you'll lose or something? wasn't that it?
Krill: Yeah, cav scout said to name it after how many maces it'll take to capture it
Memphus got that one right...
me: lol
yeah i don't have any plans to send any maces that way
like i said in the email, there's not a whole lot i feel i can do about it
which was probably your point
Krill: meh, we weren't sure, Mr #1 soldiers points
me: heh
#1 by quite a bit iirc
are you guys still #2?
Krill: Or maybe Shady is
I know we are pretty high
me: yeah
not sure
Sent at 2:59 PM on Wednesday
Krill: BTW, you tried dotmapping where RR went (I wanted it named reviled Rexers, but it looks like I got over ruled)
I mean the area, for decent city sites?
me: oh was it really RR? i was just guessing
Krill: Yeah, it was RR
me: so is that 18 cities then?
or 17 due to the barb loss?
Krill: 18
me: cool
no - i haven't
as far as i had taken it, i'd have 1-2 on the wheat peninsula
you'd have the one by the desert hill
sunrise was putting one a little south of the oasis
and kind of a no mans land in teh middle?
does that make sense? (i don't have a map in front of me)
Krill: http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj417...ities1.jpg
You probably will think that gives you lts of intel
But I don;t think you can do anything with it
btw
Yaz asks a question
Sent at 3:06 PM on Wednesday
Krill: HE wants you to join the NUTA.
Says that he'd be happy to gift you RR and that city north of it if you did
Sent at 3:07 PM on Wednesday
me: hmm
so RR is 1NW of the oasis?
i was thinking it was 1W
i can't actually see it currently
Krill: Let me put it this way
if it isn;t 1NW of hte oasis I'm going to go shout at Yaz
me: lol
so is red x another city?
Krill: Yeah
me: stupid slobberers?
Krill: Slow settlers?
me: somany settlers?
Krill: That I like
me: glad to help
i assume to be settled next turn
Krill: I hope so...
Sent at 3:14 PM on Wednesday
me: so what would me joining the NUTA entail?
Krill: From my perspective?
And Yazs'
Sent at 3:17 PM on Wednesday
Krill: Peace with Shady, Imhotep, working out a fair settling plan with both of them. Join us in teching, cut all tech/gold links with the UTA
Sent at 3:19 PM on Wednesday
me: so you don't seem to be teching very much
Krill: And with us, a long NAP. We'd not want to hand over RR immediately, probably in 15 turns, just to make sure it isn't a backstab.
Eh
we're improving
me: you / incas as opposed to you / nuta
Krill: Eh
With Imp/Exp, you expect us to tech?
me: :-D
Sent at 3:22 PM on Wednesday
me: so given that you said you had no plans to expand east of the desert hill
do you have plans to go further down that peninsula (with the sheep)?
Krill: Well, I plan to win, so at some point I hope we are further east than that
but right now?
no, I don;t plan to go further east
me: out of curiosity, how many cities do you think you can hit, peacefully?
feel free to not tell me
Krill: More than I can currently afford
me: heh
Krill: TBH, we kinda got screwed over, the land quality is lower for us than anyone else save maybe Imho and Broker
so while we got more land (and grabbed more from Lins/sunrise) none of it is particulary good
me: yeah
you sure do have a LOT of it though
Krill: Yeah, time to prove that Bigger is always Better

Interesting stuff - including a link to his eastern dot map, which is included above. They will be founding city #19! next turn, sealing off the whole wheat peninsula we were talking about earlier.

They also invited me into the NUTA, which I don't think is a good deal for me, at least not better than one I can get with shady. Yaz / Krill need to be stopped.

[MWIN]

How many cities do you have? Do you have any count for everybody else?

[regoarrarr]

How many cities do you have? Do you have any count for everybody else?

Good question. I do not have the totals but I will check that out and report back later on tonight

Yaz as mentioned has 18 currently, and will found #19 next turn.

I have 12, with #13 scheduled for founding in 3 turns.

[regoarrarr]

Shady's reply - to paraphrase NBA Jam...it's heaaaaating up!

I'm sorry that I haven't got a lot of time this past day or two to send my usual proper reply. But in short, I am very much interested in your proposal in the most recent email. I've sent a similarly short feeler message off to Daniel and Kodii. Daniel seemed inteested in the concept last time I mentioned it and Kodii will probably be on board as well. It may be too late to stop the distribution of the Liberalism free tech but we'll see. Can't risk Elkad getting Lib before us you see.

I'm not sure where that massive army you conjured to hold off me and Imhotep disappeared to. You really can't afford to commit anything towards Elkad? Also, will you be returning the units you borrowed? I don't know how to read Demogs to get army size (well ok I do know but I'm too lazy to do it :P) but I'm told he has a much smaller army than either of us so maybe we won't need too much units, especially if we can get to a military technology ahead of them.

You said you would like to give them a 10 turn NAP to not completely stab in the back but if I were to instantly charge on Elkad without any help from you, could I count on you to not gift units to Elkad or help him out with with tech, money, etc? Or does your 10 turn UTA cooling off period include you being helpful to them when they need it? What about tech you or Sunrise will research in the 10 turns? Can you let me know what I can expect in that 10 turn period should we go ahead with this?