Races, Units, Buildings

[zitro1987]

I think the high men pikemen is probably balanced, but the nomad one might need ranged attacks like their swordsmen

[Seravy]

Okay, so Pikemen...
I definitely want to add the 2 lost armor back. It seems nerfing in that direction was a bad idea.


Now for their attack strength, Armor Piercing is tricky. While it does remove half the enemy shields, so assuming average enemies are 7 shields, it is worth as much as removing 3.5 shields, that isn't the same as adding 3.5 attack.
First of all armor has no +To Def modifiers most of the time, while Attack always has at least one for magic weapons. However, 1 damage = 1 damage reduction only really works that way when the attack is higher. If attack is significantly lower than defense, each lost defense only adds a little attack power (going from 0% chance to dealing any damage to a small chance to a larger chance etc). If they are equal, the effect is roughly half.
So first of all that 3.5 is only 0.75*3.5 due to the hit modifier, which is 2.65.

However, the unit also has roughly equal attack to the remaining defense (4*1.25=5 vs 3.5), slightly better, so probably about 1.5-2 swords extra value is actually gained.
The unit is 1 worse than a halberdier, and costs 15 extra so this is fairly balanced at first sight. Of course the unit becomes slightly more effective as it levels up, because more attack increases relevance of armor piercing on higher armor targets faster, but that's kinda the point of having a specialized unit, if it isn't above average on intended targets, that's a failed design.

Now, Nomads get extra resistance and high men extra figures, but those are balanced by the race's other traits (drawbacks), and can be ignored. So I think we can safely add the 2 defense back without lowering attack strength.

Nomads have no other similar unit, so that's fine.

High Men however have other melee units in the same tier.

Knights would have 2 higher attack power/figure, 1 higher defense, but only half as much figures, and total health is 12 vs 16. Knights are cheaper though and move twice as fast both in combat and overland. Knights also strike first, which Pikemen do not. I think they are still good as is? Or maybe add 1 hit point? No, that's likely excessive?

Crusaders are baseline halberdiers, so about even with pikemen without their specialization. Unfortunately healing only brings up their total hp to match a pikemen (as that has more figures) although they can pool their heals together or use it on other units. They also have shields so they are far better against ranged armies. Maybe they could use 1 more resistance?

I'm slightly worried a 4 defense pikemen unit would make Crusaders and Knights less desirable, even though pikemen are still more vulnerable to spells and ranged (due to being both slow and having no shield) and cost more.

Either way, I think the +2 armor on pikemen is fine, question is do we want to improve knights or crusaders. Mostly the latter, and knights do stand out with their mobility and first strike, which can't really be replaced by slow pikemen.

[zitro1987]

I would think with the +2 figures, the high men pikemen with high armor might overshadow the more interesting crusaders unless:

*Crusaders get 3 move to be more flexible with mixed armies. Otherwise, I might think pikemen in this race needs +1 armor, not +2. Knight due to 5 move should still be a viable choice against wizards, but maybe not against neutrals.
*Nomads should be fine with +2 armor (though it might be really fun to instead give them ranged attacks or first strike to compensate for the cavalry not having it)

[Seravy]

What if we made Crusaders 8 figures as well? If the race gets extra figures, there is no reason to not apply that bonus to their other special unit in the same tier.
Looked up the old thread where we added these units. It seems we removed the 2 extra figures from Crusaders because it was too good compared to Pikemen. If we improve Pikemen, we have no reason to keep the Crusader at 6 figures either. I'd still consider making Crusaders 6 resist as well.
Not sure the 15 cost difference is justified in this case, but Crusaders do require an extra building so maybe.

If both are 8 figures, we have a choice of
Pikemen - semi-fragile, low resistance, slow unit with high attack power
Crusader - Durable, high resistance, slow unit with medium attack power
Knights - semi-fragile, medium resistance, fast unit with medium attack power.

Against ranged things, Crusaders are best, against higher tier units, pikemen, and against lower tier units, or when fast movement is needed, knights seem ideal. I'm still wondering if maybe Knights need 1 more hp? As is the unit has 4 less total than other options, although it does have higher armor and first strike does prevent a lot of retaliation damage so maybe they're fine. The main problem with knights is, lack of good targets. Swordsmen tier units are not worth the effort, halberider tier units negate the first strike, and stronger units are too strong. There aren't many units in the game that are medium tier melee without Negate First Strike ability. Still, being able to respond faster on the map, of kite enemies while throwing spells makes is a good unit. I wonder if maybe they should be 5 move to maximize that potential, because they are currently move 4 like Paladins.

[Seravy]

So I have been thinking about Barbarians.

For Life, they are a good choice, obviously.
For Sorcery, Resist Magic cancels the main weakness of the unit and gives the Sorcery wizard a strong early game, so it's good as well.
For Nature and Death, the race is hopeless. These realms rely on early magic to expand, and barbarians can't support that, while having (unbuffed) berserkers won't make up for losing the ability to summon sprites, bears, wolves, shadow demons, spiders etc.


Chaos however, could benefit from the race the same way as sorcery - providing a good early game which Chaos itself does not have. (Gargoyles are good but only as a "meets minimal requirements for an early game strategy" sense, it's by no means a powerful one. Chimeras are simply too expensive to qualify as "early".)
However Chaos has no way to use the race at all - at 3 defense and resistance, Berserkers would be ineffective and Chaos can't help with that.

Which brings us to reevaluating the idea of a new Barbarian unit. Hadriex suggested "Gladiators" and I definitely like the name. The only real design space I see which berserkers don't already cover is a lower attack, higher defense/resistance unit - and that's exactly what Chaos would need to use the race. Chaos can buff attack power - so they'd be about as efficient using the unit as Sorcery is with berserkers.

So something like this :

Gladiators
125 production
Requires Colosseum, Smithy
4 attack, 3 thrown, +1 to hit, 5 defense, 3 HP, 7 resistance, 3 movement. Probably no pathfinding?



Edit : Death Barbarians are probably playable - Blood Lust negates low resistance against two realms and Cloak of Fear does offer some defensive buff against melee units. It's likely weaker than summoning/magic based strategies, but it is at least playable. Nature, not so much.

[Sapher]

Gladiators
125 production
Requires Colosseum, Smithy
4 attack, 3 thrown, +1 to hit, 5 defense, 3 HP, 7 resistance, 3 movement. Probably no pathfinding?

If that is 6 figures looks good. Pathfinding is not that important. A bit hard to have a fast start with that but still might work on lunatic

[Nelphine]

Um. My problem is that my life bezerkers often kill enemies with just the thrown attack later on in the game.

That means this unit, while having somewhat weaker melee , realistically just completely replaces bezerkers. There would be no need to use them ever again. Once you've got thrown 11, the fact is the rest just doesn't matter. And getting thrown 8 is something you can do from just starting spells.

So I'd rather see this unit only 4 figures, to make sure it doesn't overshadow the offensive potential of bezerkers.

Alternatively, 5 melee and lose thrown.

Otherwise, this unit is effectively bezerkers with holy armor and resist magic for free, but then you're forced to cast flame blade on them to catch up to the bezerkers offense. But flame blade is cheaper than those other buffs, puts the thrown ahead of the bezerkers, and this unit's resistance works against poison unlike resist magic. Overall just far better. (Note, bezerkers already have such good offense I rarely bother with flame blade, so this is a reasonable comparison.bezerkers without flame blade already kill almost everything in the game - it's just the defense that requires attention.) Oh and colosseum is cheaper than fighters guild, so you can build these faster than bezerkers at the start of the game.

I could probably take my life barbarians from an 80% win rate (well closer to 60%, because I'm lazy and make silly mistakes) on lunatic to a 90% with this unit.

[Seravy]

If I do either of those the unit won't be playable for Chaos which defeats the whole purpose.

Holy Armor+Resist Magic, the old ones, cost 35+25 = 60. Flame Blade costs 50. Yes, cheaper but not that significantly. Currently Holy Armor is still only 5 more. But for that the unit itself costs 25% more to build.
Flame Blade working on thrown is a benefit, but you need 2 Chaos books to do that. (Actually Holy Weapon also works on thrown. Where is the difference?)
Resistance to poison might be a problem, yes. Do you have any ideas how to deter Life players from using the unit while the functionality for Chaos players remains unchanged?
I can see this working as intended for Chaos with 2 thrown, probably not much less. Without thrown the unit is just an overpriced halberdier (twice the cost for only 50% more hp).
Colosseum requires Barracks, including that the price is the same. I admit that's less than ideal but it's something.

Anyway, it's just an idea. We can also decide we accept the race is not playable for (pure) Chaos and not add the unit. Even then, dual realms including Chaos - Chaos/Sorcery and Chaos/Life  - could use it - even with as few as 2 nonchaos books to only guarantee Bless or Resist Magic. Although doing that requires 3 picks taken away from the main strategy - 2 for the extra realm and 1 for Alchemy. So it's probably only a viable plan if those Life or Sorcery books are already part of it, in which case the only cost is the need to include Alchemy which is good to have on high difficulty anyway.

[Nelphine]

Um. That's what I described was what you'd need to do to make the unit worse than bezerkers for life. 

And yes holy weapon can work too - but that's my point. I don't even bother with that much - holy armor and bless are the required spells (obviously resist magic is better than bless, but not always available). Then war college (or heroism if no war college) plus warlord is all you need to have bezerkers that crush everything. Even then, you can often skip bless/resist magic if you choose your targets carefully. (Though that means the high resistance of the gladiator could be wasted, but it also means you don't have to think about targets - no need to scout lairs for instance. Sprites/ghouls/nagas? So what, just massacre them.)

And with 5 attack, it's not halberdiers with 50% more health. It's halberdiers with 50% more health, 50% more movement, 25% more armor and 40% more resistance. Is all that worth twice the cost? *Shrug*

But recall I used to play my bezerkers strategy with halberdiers (in fact, that was a big reason why we changed summoning costs). And for me, the literal main thing I looked for was the +50% health - so only 4 races were an option. However, half the build time, on a race that has bad production.. you are right, +50% health by itself wouldn't be worth it. With the rest.. iffy. But no I agree, not worth it. 5 attack, no thrown, and 100 cost?

[Seravy]

Thrown is required. It's a racial trait, plus without it the unit can't attack flying enemies. If that was the case I'd sooner play klackons for stag beetle. It's not like chaos needs the unit to be multi-figure, sure it's good for flame blade but that's all.

I guess this unit was a bad idea overall.
Somehow the entire Barbarian race feels out of place a little - they only have one unit, they require a specific retort to play and only work well with 2 out of 5 realms, semi-ok with one more. On top of that, the one unit has major weaknesses and the race produces no magic whatsoever in a game mainly about magic.
Not that I have any plans to change it, but I do have doubts this is good design.