(August 16th, 2014, 17:22)TheHumanHydra Wrote: I'd like to see the archer and preferably the 5-xp horse archers upgraded. I'd also like a few more knights - for reference my initial attack force against Serdoa in Pbem 46 had 17 knights, and they (and their reinforcements) were wiped out - but the surprise element is indeed promising, and it depends what the size, composition, and dispositions of his forces will be.
The Archer is just for cheap MP happy while we can, I agree about the 5XP HAs though if we have the cash (and don't decide that Engineering is more important). With the slavery nerf RtR is much harder to whip up an army with than quick-speed BTS, so I hope he faces that problem too. We'll get some intel in Azza's land over the coming turns (checking his capital on t125). I'm hoping that keeping our power hidden until the last minute means he leaves his stacks on the Mardoc border.
This is the army so far.
Retep -
1. We're dropping off four units by Prove Me Wrong, then threatening Zzzap, so we need two galleys.
2. If Azza has elephants C2 knights get odds on them. We'll know more from our chariot soon...
3. The borders are fairly solid - not much we can do against Madrassa
4. The Ivory and copper will be cut on t2 of the war. Unfortunately he'll probably have Iron by then. We'll know where his is next turn.
5. We'll end up with four 5XP HAs and three 3XP HAs. Upgrade is 140 I think. A bit steep at this point in the game, but speed is going to be vital.
6. If we can take that first wave of cities (I think it'll be five not three) Azza doesn't have much production left. See below for how it *should* look on t2 of the war
7. The culture should look like this (except ignore the yellow, and the tile NE-NE of Boo-ums should disappear on the turn roll)
It was against slightly more than Azza had five turns ago when the chariot rolled through last, two spears and an axe in each border city. We won easily.
Yo said the galley would be in that stagnating point, I didn't know you mean the south
AlsoI couldn't see Zapp in the other maps but yeah Zapp is easy to take out, but how could you take Prove wrong eaasily? It would take you 3t to attack, everything that is in Boo could reach PW in 2t and everything in Dental plan could reach Boo-urn in 2 turns.
(August 16th, 2014, 19:03)retep Wrote: Yo said the galley would be in that stagnating point, I didn't know you mean the south
AlsoI couldn't see Zapp in the other maps but yeah Zapp is easy to take out, but how could you take Prove wrong eaasily? It would take you 3t to attack, everything that is in Boo could reach PW in 2t and everything in Dental plan could reach Boo-urn in 2 turns.
Our stagnating point is going to be further into Azza's territory where we realise we massively underestimated him.
The staging point in the south is Izzy (circle) - from there two galleys can unload three or four Knights on the square 2SE of Prove Me Wrong. If we get the second half of the timer Azza only has one turn to respond and can't whip. Hopefully Azza still only has one warrior in there as it's got 40% culture and we'll need to attack over a river, but again we'll find out in the near future...
FT is thinking that we can leave one of the galleys visible SW of Izzy, which would mean it could attack Zzzap on the second turn of the war (it'd need units and a road from Lucky, but that's doable) - do you think Azza will ignore a galley that just sits on the diamond for the next five turns?
Lots of nice discussion here, some comments:
- Note OH, that the city location of Azza's Aurora is just a rough guess and there is no guarantee that there are enough roads that enable the path that you drafted for our sentry chariot. I'm sure that the plan was mostly illustrative, but I'm just reminding to play it safe when it comes to getting chariot into right place at the right time (e.g. next turns tentative scouting moves are not of high priority).
- You are right retep that Prove Me Wrong can be reinforced by Azza fairly fast, but I think that is ok for us. If Azza commits a lot of units for taking the city back we simply retreat our units there and are happy that our northern forces have room, consolidate our gains there and enjoy the fact that Azza lost his production at PMW. If Azza decides to turtle or heads with full power towards his capital we might be able to keep those southern cities with our limited forces. Boo-urn did not have a stack when we passed by so if things haven't changed we mostly need to calculate how quickly Azza can bring his stack from Dental Plan + what units he has wandering around elsewhere.
- That galley has been hanging around on those nets next to Izzy also in the past so I don't think that it would look too dangerous in Azza's eyes. Of course we could count on our sentry chariot doing its job at Azza's Z and just keep both of our galleys hidden.
Micro/spreadsheet comments:
Alfie: Bureaucracy bonus I guess the infra priority after forge is something like "Gold Multipliers" > Monastery > Aqueduct Butterscotch: I think you are adding 10 hammers too much from 2-pop whip, but the big picture works anyway Cornelius: 2nd mace could be a knight that will be produced on the same turn that we attack and catches up our forces at Hello Joe? If possible keep our stronger units hidden from Azza. Maces already scream that Guilds is not far away. Daisy: That plan is cool Englbert: Flossie: That mace could be a knight also, but if you want some maces following along that is surely solid as well. Same thing as with C applies here, if possible keep our strong forces hidden Hazelnut: When our war stats, let's produce a lbow here as well so that CH does not get bad ideas Izzy: I like the micro baseline here, but I'm not 100 % sure if xbow is what we want here. We don't have too many knights so this could be one of those 2-movers that are supposed to capture PMW if it is lightly defended Jelly Bean: Looks good: Kirby: I'm not 100 % sure if this is the right place to produce cats as those scream attack and Azza has the visibility of the city. Those hammers could be a knight as well. I'm not saying that the plan should change, just raising my worry. Putting a hammer into trireme might be wise so that we can control waters, but maybe that's not soooo urgent (especially if we keep enough vision of the coast so that we get enough warning if needed) (I also don't know if Azza has any galleys apart from the one that is somewhere near mardoc currently) Lucky: I like it Producing a knight instead of a mace that I think I mentioned before also eliminates the need to road the northern tip of island Marmalade: Nina: Ophelia: I think I disagree here! You are right that it is a shame to whip a city that is growing onto tiles that will increase food surplus, but in the end those are "only" 3-commerce tiles and whipping higher sizes is more expensive as well, which partly compensates for that. Consequently I say, that 1-pop whip the barracks, overflow into HA and get a knight out of there as well. There is a forest that can be chopped into the knight so that we probably need only two 1-pop whips altogether. I don't mind if this knight won't quite reach the staging point for our first wave. We will need reinforcements in this war anyways I think. Afterwards, I like the lbow in "O" for the same reason that I like it at "H". Pickle: Quentin:
Heh, it looks like we are whipping ~20 pop points during the T125, let's hope Azza does not track score changes too carefully
(August 17th, 2014, 11:21)Fintourist Wrote: Lots of nice discussion here, some comments:
- Note OH, that the city location of Azza's Aurora is just a rough guess and there is no guarantee that there are enough roads that enable the path that you drafted for our sentry chariot. I'm sure that the plan was mostly illustrative, but I'm just reminding to play it safe when it comes to getting chariot into right place at the right time (e.g. next turns tentative scouting moves are not of high priority).
I thought we were more likely to go for a t129 attack anyway, but I'm pretty sure there are roads:
- on the t123 leg because of the shape of the road NE of Ultraviolet and SSSS of Red
- at potential Aurora because the stone is hooked (although the deer isn't so it's not totally clear.)
But yeah, lets ditch the t121 move and find out sooner. Once we know the culture shape we can test teleportation to see where the chariot should sit when we declare ...
Alfie: Bureaucracy bonus I guess the infra priority after forge is something like "Gold Multipliers" > Monastery > Aqueduct
Do we start the grocer straight away on t126 or spend two turns to finish the monastery? We could save cash for a couple of turns before going 100% for Engy or Banking so I favour the Monastery, unless you have some maths that says otherwise...
(August 17th, 2014, 11:21)Fintourist Wrote: Cornelius: 2nd mace could be a knight that will be produced on the same turn that we attack and catches up our forces at Hello Joe? If possible keep our stronger units hidden from Azza. Maces already scream that Guilds is not far away. Flossie: That mace could be a knight also, but if you want some maces following along that is surely solid as well. Same thing as with C applies here, if possible keep our strong forces hidden
Mace or Knight depends if Azza is building Elephants or HAs - once our chariot finds out we can decide.
If we play before Azza on turns where units appear then they can remain hidden, is that a bit too gamey?
(August 17th, 2014, 11:21)Fintourist Wrote: Kirby: I'm not 100 % sure if this is the right place to produce cats as those scream attack and Azza has the visibility of the city. Those hammers could be a knight as well. I'm not saying that the plan should change, just raising my worry. Putting a hammer into trireme might be wise so that we can control waters, but maybe that's not soooo urgent (especially if we keep enough vision of the coast so that we get enough warning if needed) (I also don't know if Azza has any galleys apart from the one that is somewhere near mardoc currently)
Good point. I was thinking that they look defensive, but not coming from a commerce city... We could part-build a cat and a trireme, whip them once it won't make any difference and overflow into another cat. Not having many (any) cats with our strike force could prove costly so perhaps Flossie could make some after the spear.
(August 17th, 2014, 11:21)Fintourist Wrote: Heh, it looks like we are whipping ~20 pop points during the T125, let's hope Azza does not track score changes too carefully
Perhaps the civstats replacement is good for us here!
Seems like we're going to get some entertainment soon.
As I'm a bloodthirsty lurker and want to ensure the fun continues, I have to ask what kind of plans do you have for Mardoc after Azza war? I think if Mardoc decides to try to grab Azza land, he'll have cities coming out of revolt ideally guarded by wounded units and is overall more spread out. Until he gets time to consolidate, build walls in border cities etc. So in that scenario attacking Mardoc fast could be good. But that requires having healthy units and enough of them ready to act.
I hope speculations like this are allowed for spoiled lurkers.
(August 18th, 2014, 13:49)von Adlercreutz Wrote: Seems like we're going to get some entertainment soon.
As I'm a bloodthirsty lurker and want to ensure the fun continues, I have to ask what kind of plans do you have for Mardoc after Azza war? I think if Mardoc decides to try to grab Azza land, he'll have cities coming out of revolt ideally guarded by wounded units and is overall more spread out. Until he gets time to consolidate, build walls in border cities etc. So in that scenario attacking Mardoc fast could be good. But that requires having healthy units and enough of them ready to act.
I hope speculations like this are allowed for spoiled lurkers.
As long as the above is your thinking and not copy-pasted from Mardoc's thread I think you did not cross the line.
I think the basic idea is to remain aggressive and militaristic until the whole continent belongs to us (or until we find ourselves in a losing position and have to start defending/turtling instead). We are going more for a speedy type of attack with Azza instead of building an overwhelming of power by whipping every single city down, which means that there will be room for error and bad luck for us --> thinking about conquering Mardoc requires currently a fairly optimistic mindset. However, if everything goes smoothly, we manage to conquer Azza and there is a chance to jump on Mardoc (e.g. we find a wounded stack or border cities that aren't defended well enough) I can see us continuing warfare immediately.
Obviously we need to monitor the situation in other directions as well (Cyneheard+pindicator in the north and Cheater Hater in the east) and see if there are even more attractive opportunities, or the complete opposite, and those guys force us to commit resources for defending our other borders.
I guess the infra priority after forge is something like "Gold Multipliers" > Monastery > Aqueduct
Do we start the grocer straight away on t126 or spend two turns to finish the monastery? We could save cash for a couple of turns before going 100% for Engy or Banking so I favour the Monastery, unless you have some maths that says otherwise...
Perhaps the civstats replacement is good for us here!
