Are you happy with RtR?

[Charriu]

I'd be more in favor of giving the AGG trait +1 culture to barracks. It just felt too easy to ignore the religious line entitling when you had the RtR version of things

Just wanted to say I can code that.

[Hitru]

Somehow missed that this thread is active again.

Regarding towns acting as forts I don't have strong feelings, but would prefer to revert back.

Peace lenght. Fine either way, so lets revert back as that's what the poll shows.

Culture from barracks. Strongly in favor of barracks giving culture, no need to restrict options, especially as in big pb not everyone can reliably have religion spread or be CRE. And if your primary plan to get border pops is to build non AGG barracks then that's far from optimal so I don't see this trivializing culture.

Temples can go back to priesthood, but no strong opinion on this.

Traits. I would like to keep bloated (pb49 traits count I guess) as balance between traits is the most important factor to me. If (many)people dislike some aspects like multiple traits boosting one building we could try to take a look at that maybe? But here I would like to keep clear separation to CtH mod, IMO in RtR we should have (slightly)bloated traits if needed for balance and in CtH we should have streamlined traits with small cost to balance if necessary.

Privs: I think military tradion is too far away for privs to really do what they are supposed to do as frigs are usually around the corner or already on the field at that point. How about gunpowder and optics?

[Old Harry]

Okay, that's enough debate. Here are the results of the outstanding points:

1. Towns act as forts for boats and air units [no lean either way, so hopefully someone will argue for this one]

Towns should not be giving defensive bonuses. IDK about the pillaging, or naval movement, but it can provide cover to advancing enemy troops. It's kind of dumb.

Regarding towns acting as forts I don't have strong feelings, but would prefer to revert back.

Looks like we're reverting back to vanilla.



2. 5 turn peace treaties/resource trades [lean revert to 10t treaties]

Peace lenght. Fine either way, so lets revert back as that's what the poll shows.

Looks like we're reverting back to vanilla.



3. Barracks give culture [lean keep]

Barracks giving culture is a nerf to creative and a buff to agg. Trivializes early game culture, might as well have granaries give culture... Just get rid of it.

I enjoy barracks giving 1culture. Gives more variety for early culture than having to tech mysticism for monuments, or tech writing and well... libraries arent cheap.

I dont really see it as much of a nerf to CRE. CRE gives border pops in 5t without anymore investment than just settling the city. No whips, chops, ect.

I quite like the change too, it's another option, and 60h for 1cpt isn't exactly cheap so if you need a quick border pop you'll build a monument.. I can see the argument that it makes life too easy, but it's a level playing field of easiness (except for agg and cre) so I don't personally value that argument as high as the fun of having another choice for an early build in a city.

Maybe reduce the cost of Monuments to 25 or 20h, while keeping Barracks as is? Have people built them in recent games, even situationally?

I meant leave barracks with culture, but reduce the cost of monuments, to make them more enticing if you really are after the quick culture. My experience with monuments in 49 was that I didn't see any, (not even from SH which nobody bothered to build), but that is of course very limited.

I think GKC's issue originally was that culture was too easy to come by, so I don't see cheaper monuments making him happy...

I'd be fine with barracks giving +1 culture if we kept vanilla creative minus the colosseum bonus which goes to charismatic. We're still trivializing culture, but we fix this nonsense of splitting bonuses to buildings over half a dozen traits. I see how it's popular, and a change that sort of defines the way RtR works (cutting out the raw edge and harshness out of certain early game choices), so I don't think I'll further contest this - traits are the biggest gripe by far I have with RtR anyhow.

I'd be more in favor of giving the AGG trait +1 culture to barracks. It just felt too easy to ignore the religious line entitling when you had the RtR version of things

Culture from barracks. Strongly in favor of barracks giving culture, no need to restrict options, especially as in big pb not everyone can reliably have religion spread or be CRE. And if your primary plan to get border pops is to build non AGG barracks then that's far from optimal so I don't see this trivializing culture.

This is a contentious one:
- the buff to AGG and nerf to CRE seems like a good thing
- having more options for culture seems like a good thing, monuments are still cheaper so this doesn't remove them totally, but players have more agency over what they do
- in a big game where not everyone gets a religion or Stonehenge, it seems a touch stingy to make the losers build monuments everywhere

So I'm inclined to keep culture on barracks. If anyone has a really good rejoinder to these three points you have a few days to reply.



4. Temples on Meditation instead of Priesthood [lean move back to Priesthood]

Temples can go back to priesthood, but no strong opinion on this.

Looks like we're reverting back to vanilla.



5. Traits have bloated since v2.5 (ish) (reverting would mean FIN loses +35% production of Library, Market; CRE goes from +35% to +100% production of Library, Observatory; CHA loses +100% production of Colosseum, +35% production of Library; IMP goes from +50 to +60% settlers, loses -10% city maintenance; IMP loses +35% production of Bank, University, -15% civic maintenance but gets it's bonus back for 'mids) [lean keep pb49 traits]

As far as the traits are concerned, the biggest bloat to me is definitely the ticky tacky civic/city maint bonuses that AGG/IMP/IND get. There has to be something a little more interesting than any of that.

Traits. I would like to keep bloated (pb49 traits count I guess) as balance between traits is the most important factor to me. If (many)people dislike some aspects like multiple traits boosting one building we could try to take a look at that maybe? But here I would like to keep clear separation to CtH mod, IMO in RtR we should have (slightly)bloated traits if needed for balance and in CtH we should have streamlined traits with small cost to balance if necessary.

I think Hitru has nailed it here. Some of the boosts are annoyingly fiddly, but we're trying for balance rather than elegance. Unless anyone has a particularly snappy comeback on this I think we're  keeping PB49 traits.



6. Privateers need Optics & Paper not Astronomy & Chemistry [lean keep]

Also I'd like to reiterate that while earlier Privateers are good, many (by my feels) people in 46 saw Optics +Paper as too early. I still like the idea of Military Tradition, fitting for the theme and the upper part of the tree isn't getting that much attention I think.

Although - having said that I don't want to fiddle with stuff - I really like moving Privateers to Optics/Mil Trad - anyone think that's a terrible idea?

Privs: I think military tradion is too far away for privs to really do what they are supposed to do as frigs are usually around the corner or already on the field at that point. How about gunpowder and optics?

I think everyone would be happy to have Privateers earlier, but not quite so early, so let's ask one more question:
Optics/Gunpowder or Optics/Mil Trad?  
It's a simple question so please just reply in-thread. If no-one replies we'll go for Optics/Mil Trad because that's the one I like better.

[Hitru]

I'm fine with trying optics/mil trad but I do worry that they will be too late. We can always try that first and then if it does not feel right optics/gunpowder

[Cornflakes]

Okay, that's enough debate. Here are the results of the outstanding points:

Looks like I missed the window for debate ... but I agree with OH's above summary. The only option I have a strong opinion about is reverting to 10t peace treaties. 5-turns is too short to serve any strategic purpose. It's not even enough time to shift troops around to another front. Cease Fire already serves the purpose of ending war and letting the WW counter decay. The side-effect of only enforcing resource trade for 5 turns is too short a horizon to make loans appealing and too short to make resource trade really worth it. By the time the trade is completed one turn is already burned for the party first in turn order.

I think everyone would be happy to have Privateers earlier, but not quite so early, so let's ask one more question:
Optics/Gunpowder or Optics/Mil Trad?  
It's a simple question so please just reply in-thread. If no-one replies we'll go for Optics/Mil Trad because that's the one I like better.

I vote for: Optics/Mil Trad, because is diversifies some naval power to the top of the tree rather than on the Chemistry line with Frigates.

[Old Harry]

Hey Charriu, I've put the results of the debate in column G on the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...=912045661

If you can put together a new copy of the mod I might have an idea for a pitboss...

[Charriu]

I have to see when I find the time to do it. Currently the two running games werewolf and PB52 are taking up a good chunk of time. Just a few quick questions to verify that I understood it:

1. Remove 45 hammer with Inca/India granaries with no PRO discount. So back to 60 with a PRO discount, right?
2. Remove crossbow change. So Crossbows back to base BtS implementation?
3. Remove castles change. So back to base BtS castle, right?

[Old Harry]

1. Yes. Inca are probably still overpowered, but we'll leave them for now.
2. I think the crossbow needs to keep the 25% defence vs maces (because maces are keeping the city attack bonus), but lose the collateral and stop requiring Construction.
3. Yes please!

And no rush, we've got lots of games running so I doubt another would get a lot of signups just yet.

[superdeath]

[Charriu]

When I do those changes I will also bring over all BUG related features I developed for CtH assuming that those are ok here too. I may have to adjust some of them. Now this means I will do changes in the DLL. While I'm at it I can also bring over some changes from CtH. I've looked at my changes there and I would like to bring the following over if everybody is ok with it:

• Religion spread: Spreading religions via missionaries to your own cities never fails
  
• Global warming: Removed (this should already be in there I think)
  
• Free Wins against Barbs: All units that can act as MP get Free Wins against barbs as long as a settler is present in the same tile. Does still reduce your Free Wins towards Barbs
  
• Workboats no longer count as military units for upkeep. They're also no longer considered a military unit so a War Academy will not speed their production.
  
• and the following game options:
  

New game options

No war weariness: This deactivates war weariness. Note that all the buildings, tooltips etc. are still active. You just don't accumulate any war weariness.
No score: This fix everybodys score to 1. Therefore no C&D around score is possible.
City count tied to espionage: This changes the city count display in the BUG scoreboard. With this it is enabled when you get graphs on other players