[SPOILERS] Willem of Portugal (Dantski + Mukha)

[Mukha]

OK guys,

Here is the combined world map, however there were some issues, namely that the map you sent me seems to be the wrong resolution, it was much too small. I did however get it to expand to fit it into mine, so it's just about passable. That might have something to do with flying camera; the screen shots that I've been using have been taken without it, just using the normal zoom feature to get everything to line up identical. It's the easiest standard to use for everyone, as flying camera is totally random where you take the screen shots from.

I promise not to give your screenshots to anyone else, provided that you agree to the same with mine. I've given you the original screen shots as well in case you want to recreate my world map from scratch.

Unfortunately I'm a little busy tonight, so I can't go into details of tech trades, but if you want a chat tomorrow there is a good chance I can oblige you at some point. There is a good chance that I want to research Writing myself though, but that is still up in the air as I'm researching Mining atm.

Krill

The goods:






Lots of interesting things to be drawn from these.

He only has the one worker with another coming in 4 turns. We have 2 with another 2 coming in 4 turns.

We are now his closest known rival. This combined with his avoidance of talking about allies and NAPs (he didn't address that question at all in his response) makes me think he's planning an attack or at least a choke.

He said he was researching mining atm, so just wtf is that resource 1N of his second city? I swear it looks like copper, but I don't know how he could have BW. He would have to have researched AH/Mysticism/Polytheism/Mining/BW which simply isn't possible. So it's got to be something else. Clearly I was too trusting to tag our resources on our map before screenshotting. Thought it would just save trouble because he could easily just zoom in anyway, apparently it's not that easy! Also, tagging our land clearly reveals how juicy it is. So much pork!

Really hoping that we aren't about to play host to a axe/spear tour bus. We need to go through civstats and focus on Krill's score increases and verify for sure what techs he currently has.

Edit: Just remembered we have his graphs. He definitely doesn't have BW according to his power.

Edit: It's gold.

About the reload, if no overflow is lost, did it even matter that you hadn't selected a build for one turn? Was it just a ploy to compose your hit list?

You give us way too much credit. I only know one tactical manoeuvre and that's remembering to move my units. I feel like Napoleon himself when I pull that one off.

[Dantski]

about turn not building, I think we lost the basic hammers per turn from capital but kept the overflow

also muk is currently thinking krills copper is perhaps a graphics mod

[Mukha]

It's definitely gold. Well, from what we can see his land isn't as good as ours food wise. But he hasn't explored much around his capital so it's hard to tell. But a plains gold is going to put him way in front in techs at this early stage.

[Mukha]

Tragic News!

Holiday has been cancelled.

Krill - RBPB3
me: hi, you around?
Krill: Yeah
me: Ok, just got your email
Krill: Whom am I speaking to, btw, Mukha or Dantski?
me: mukha sorry
dantski is around
Krill: np
Well, to business?
me: ok
your plains gold caused a flurry of updates
in our thread
Krill: I'd happily trade it for food
me: so I think you'll be in the tech lead for a while I imagine
Krill: but Sullla has never liked biving me a balanced start
Go ahead
me: heh not much to say there
I prefer food too, and a plains gold is clearly an edit
it is strange, not sure if civ placements were known before map was finalized
Krill: Yeah, they could have been randomized.
me: remember, though in terms of screwed starts it's hard to beat an all land map as Portugal
Krill: Well, tech was what I wanted to talk about with you.
me: yep sure
we were going for wheel pottery at the moment
Krill: Well, I'm trying to set up a tech alliance atm
And I'm planning on Oracling Alphabet
me: ok, tech alliance with who else?
Krill: so far I've managed to persuade 2 other teams to take part, but it needs to be larger to have a chance of surviving, so would you like to take part?
HRE and India
are the only confirmed members as yet
me: right I'm just relaying to this dantski in real time
Krill: is he in chat now?
me: i can't invite him here apparently google chat is only 2 way?
Krill: one moment, I can set up a group chat
I need his email addy though
me: [redacted]
Krill: tell him to check the invites in his inbox
me: ok, he's accepted
Sent at 9:33 AM on Thursday

Krill has joined.
Dantski has joined.
me: ok
Dantski: hi new mail storage
Krill: Hello
Well, where were we...
Ah yes
me: tech alliance with india, HRE
Krill: Well, hopefully it'll expand beyond that
Dantski: hmm
me: it definitely interests me, I guess our main concern is finding that agg rome could very well be our western neighbour
Dantski: hre is on friends list but india isn';t
me: heh HRE voted yes to our reload request?
Krill: Well, after discussing the Alliance with India and HRE, they were all happy for you to join
Dantski: they weren't negative i think
me: ok, I think a tentative yes would be our answer at the moment, we would probably need to discuss it at the moment. I don't suppose you have permission to share the various tech paths of the others do you?
Krill: So far none of the tech paths have been discussed
me: we would need construction to fend off praes
Dantski: safe to say we're looking at writing one
past that kinda unknown
Krill: but what we had a rough agreement on was that these were teh techs that we wanted doing in the first round:
Dantski: what alpha monarchy IW something?
Krill: Maths, Monarchy, Alphabet (mine via oracle), CoL, Currency, IW, HBR, MC.
One for each team
that would be part of the alliance
Dantski: need to reread what we voted on
me: brokering, no other restrictioins
i think
Krill: the teams that researched the cheaper techs would also have to provide ancient era techs to help even up the costs. For instance, I could do with trading for pottery
Yeah, Brokering is on
So you'd have to get out some warriors and start scouting
Dantski: id like to but
Krill: but to be frank, if you don;t want to scout out new trading partners you aren't going to get many trades anyway
Dantski: muk doesn't listen to me
Krill: Oh, really?
me: yes well he is dead weight
Dantski: well i think my contribution ended after leader pick
Krill: did you have some concerns?
Dantski: yes
Krill: or rather, do you?
me: we are in the process of building scouts
Dantski: we need to road up between us
me: it's our immediate goal to get some research discounts
Dantski: so your war chariots can invade faster
Krill: You want an NAP?
Dude, join the tech alliance and you can have one until turn 120
Dantski: yeah although
neither of us are nap fans
me: my vote is: done
Dantski: but yeah im ok with the UTA being refounded
me: i hate the temptation that some teams feel to use an expiring NAP as a reason to start plotting
Krill: strategically speaking, tech alliances were always going to play a part with the insane tech costs and maintence
Well, if it is any help, You probably have Exploit to your north
Rome to your NW
France to your S
Aztec are to the E of India
me: well exploit is on the record as being fairly anti alliances isn't he?
Krill: and HR are to your SW somewhere
Yeah
me: so let's not invite him
Krill: Which is one of the reasons we all agreed to not allow him into the alliance
So you are fully on board?
me: yes
Krill: cool
Well
me: but it's still a long way to writing for us at current rates
Krill: France have also been vetoed
me: do you have a rough idea for time till alphabet?
Krill: mate, I'm happy to trade you writing
I can Oracle alphabet turn 62
I'll need to trade for BW and pottery though
Dantski: we need to find the water tiles
me: we'll have pottery by then I'm pretty sure, need to check my micro plan
Dantski: and plant 2 cities for great lighthouse on them
Krill: Unfortunately it is TBG
so there aren't any 20 tile lakes :P
or is it 10?
Either way
Do you have the Wheel already?
me: i think we calculated 47 lake tiles
Krill: Probably spread about the map
me: no, we are still dragging our way to AH, once we have the sheep hooked up we should move a little quicker
Krill: hmm, ok. One of the tings were were looking at, is the tech costs
me: so our previous plan before your oracle alphabet idea was for alphabet ourselves, but we would be happy to supply maths instead
Krill: because of the time it takes to reach pottery, we agreed that it is probably best if only 1 team researches it, a team that already has the Wheel. Once Alphabet is in, everyone can trade for Pottery, and lose at most 5 ish turns of being able to cottage
Well, right now we're still sorting out who wants in.
me: right
Krill: Absolutely no techs have been assigned after the techs each team is currently researching
except my path because it's kinda the most important one :P
me: right well we are 4T till AH, 2 turns of money then 7 till wheel
Krill: Don't you have Fishing?
me: yes
Sent at 9:49 AM on Thursday
me: pottery should be a bit quicker for us with all the prerequisites
do you know if india could send a scout to us?
Krill: I'll ask them now
Asked
TBH, I think you are a good candidate to provide Sailing.
Don;t know of many others that have Fishing
It's just that we can't have one team provide all of the ancient era techs
teams that research the cheaper techs, IW, HBR, maths need to provide something extra to balance out CoL etc
consdiering that Col is 630 beakers
and IW only 360
Sent at 9:54 AM on Thursday
Krill: It's not like we want to go and say to each team "You are teching this this and this in that order"
me: I'll have to have another look at the river situation
yeah, i think I can safely say on behalf of our team that we just get too much of a commerce bonus not to tech pottery ourselves as soon as possible
Krill: Do you know how many turns it would take you to reach pottery?
currently we are, what, 25 turns from trading
Dantski: ill login and take a look
Krill: and it is 12 turns until you say you can finish Wheel
If it takes you 10 turns to research it...
me: ok so if you're getting writing alphabet and we're getting pottery we would have to find quite a few other techs to make up the costs
Krill: is it worth spending all of those beakers for an extra 3 turns of cottages?
me: it takes 7 turns at 100% i think
Krill: So 4-5 turns extra of getting cottages
me: who else was on pottery? or do you mean someone else who has wheel should be on pottery duty?
Krill: the latter, probably
We haven't talked to everyone yet, which is why this is all up in the air
me: right, did you mention already what techs HRE and India were currently on?
Krill: Bw and AH
India said exactly the same thing as you about pottery btw, when I was persuading them
they agreed that it was not worth researching pottery if they could trade for it.
me: right but our immediate bonus is bigger than theirs
Krill: It's not necessarily the bonus in researching the tech though
it's the amount of time you have it afterwards to reap the payoff, compared to just trading for it
Which is why getting Alphabet so early skews the entire equation
me: yes
Krill: For instance, pottery and Wheel are worth about 250 adjusted beakers
That's just more than 100 beakers shy of IW
so if you imagine all of the commerce you lost from not cottaging for those 5 turns, and compared it to working the silver for the extra turns...
me: well, IW could be another of our other targets
Krill: Yup. We won;t know who is in or not until tomorrow, maybe later
me: yes, but who exactly is doing pottery then?
heh you didn't want to do it? you didn't want india or us to do it?
Krill: We need to wait and see. I honestly don;t know, which is why I'm not saying that you aren't going to research pottery
Because you might be the team
me: right ok, I don't want to come across as saying we've locked in our techs
Krill: I'm just saying, be flexible
me: we'll just tech whatever is best for the alliance to get a future goal
Krill: I think the aims is that by t75 maths and Monarchy are down
as well as HBR, IW
so all of the core classical techs
Sent at 10:06 AM on Thursday
me: right, i Need to find a guide to reserach discounts online somewhere, the fact that discounts are calculated after beakers
hurts my brain
Krill: way it works is thus
me: then we can give a more exact answer to time to various techs
Krill: take the number of beakers you are making in the top left of the screen
add one
multiply it by however many optional prerequisite techs you have
those are the techs that have arrows leading to the tech you are researching
me: yeah
Krill: ie fishing and agri are optional prerequisites
each one is worth 0.2
so if you had both, 1+0.2+0.2 = 1.4
me: ok so we get 1.4 times
plus whoever else we know who has pottery
Krill: if you are making 19 beakers in the top left, add one for 20
me: not sure about that bonus
Krill: times 1.4 = 28
the bonus for other people is this
take the number of people you know who have the tech already
and devide it by the number of players in the game
and multiply by 0.3
Dantski: damnit krill
Krill: then add 1
Dantski: muks gonan bombard me with excel spreadsheets now
me: heh
Krill: Your loss
Dantski: you want a new teammate?
me: damn i thought i had finished micro plan with version 13.6
Krill: so if 4 people know pottery, and you have met all of them, that is 4/16*0.3=0.075+1=1.075
that number you get out at the end is then multiplied by the tech prerequisite number you generated beforehand
so 1.075*1.4=1.505
however!
You must round DOWN after every calculation to the nearest beaker
so (19+1) beakers * 1.075= 21.5 = 21
21*1.4 = 29
me: right ok, well that should help a heck of a lot
thanks for that masterclass
Krill: np
me: actually if school is still in session
Krill: yes...?
me: is there a simple formula for calculating city maintenance?
Krill: yes but I don;t know it
and it isn;t simple
it has square roots in it and everything
Dantski: lets ally with someone who knows
me: yeah, afraid we're out
Krill: OK, my war chariots are on their way
me: probably should warn you I photoshopped our horse archers out
ok, so I think we've agreed to form an alliance, details to be decided later?
Krill: Yeah
I'd sggest that you get a warrior out asap and send him NE and then SE under India
get as many contacts as possible asap
me: we have a warrior on our eastern border
Krill: gj
me: does india have a warrior out near us somewhere do you know?
Krill: I think they have one to their SW, but I'm not sure what it is doing
Sent at 10:18 AM on Thursday
me: do you know anything about rome's team? S&S?
Sent at 10:20 AM on Thursday
Krill: Nope, only how to play the civ
and the leader
tbh they are maybes for hte alliance
me: ok we'll do the maths with your formulas and see what techs we can get out of the list by the time you get alphabet
Krill: cool
Sent at 10:23 AM on Thursday
me: ok, so we'll talk again soon
Krill: Cool, have a good evening
Dantski: wait a sec
me: thanks and evening to you isn't it?
Dantski: what was arsenal porto result?
Krill: 2-1 to Porto
Dantski: ahh thanks
me: see, that's what I have to put with in my spoiler thread
Krill: Mukha, what do you mean? What is the proper response?
me: i was asking if you were in an evening time zone in which case good evening
sorry just wasn't sure where you were
Dantski: its 11.30
krill is uk like me
me: ah right
Krill: Yeah, I'm in the UK
Dantski: cant expect an american to know foot results
me: you have to balance your posts in the spoiler threads with ones about civ
they can't all be about soccer
Krill: Yes they can
Dantski: you can talk about aussie rules too
although its very confusing
me: ok, every post can be about soccer but you have to connect it with an analogy to our civ game
Dantski: so killing a wolf
is like police beating up mad supporter?
me: i agree with the mitchell and webb view on soccer "it will never truly be decided just who has won the football. the football is officially going on forever"
anyway, with that i think i'll call it a day
Krill: It's the way it should be
good night
me: good night
Dantski: dunno its 7am or something for him

Can't pass up this opportunity to post this mitchell and webb video

[Mukha]

Irritant:


Deterrent:


I expect they won't invade after warrior completes in Madrigal.

Also, kind of funny how Krill said France had been vetoed in that chat. Considering we haven't met them and the only other people in tech alliance are on the other side of the world, it's fairly obvious who vetoed them and why.

Another email from Krill.

Hi guys,

further to the chat we had the other day about the tech alliance, I want to ask you if you have any feelings regarding allowing Rome into the alliance? My personal view is that it would help everyone if we get over half of the teams then we are in with a good shot of going the distance with this group, but you having Agg Rome as an ally on your border would give you a strong local presence instead of being on the outside surrounded by teams not part of the alliance.

If you do want Rome in the Alliance, I think we need to discuss how to approach them. The best way would be if you could send their warrior east to meet India, and we can handle directions from there to the other civs. We would also need to maybe inform them of the tech alliance somehow to get them into it, but that might have to wait a little bit...but you should definitely try to get them as allies

Krill

Kind of pertinent to the current situation. We actually were thinking the same thing. It needs to be either India, HRE or Egypt to broach the topic, we'd just seem like a desperate fin civ.

[novice]

What's up? Are you aiming to expand your hit list again?

If you've had a mistype situation and decide to bite the bullet you should triple-check that you don't have any units on gotos or other strange commands (autoimprove, autoexplore, etc), and no weird governor settings. I hate it when my computer starts responding to hotkeys I never knew existed...

[Mukha]

What's up? Are you aiming to expand your hit list again?

If you've had a mistype situation and decide to bite the bullet you should triple-check that you don't have any units on gotos or other strange commands (autoimprove, autoexplore, etc), and no weird governor settings. I hate it when my computer starts responding to hotkeys I never knew existed...

I think I just need to reinstall civ. Lots of funny things being going on. Maybe Dantski you should take dedicated turn player status while I fix it?

So it looks like the funny worker moves are going to delay the 4th city settler we have building but it depends on how we choose to quell this worker rebellion. There are other options but they really waste a ton of worker development turns and will slow growth and production later.

All these reload requests makes it appear like it's our first ever civ game.

As we haven't had a single word from India in response to our greeting and Rome won't commit to anything, it's starting to look like it would be easier to create a non-hit list.

Non-hit list:
1. Krill

[Mukha]

Well, we don't have a reload rule, but any rule I'd vote for wouldn't allow a reload for misclicks. I guess that makes me a jerk . A reload for a connection or system issue is fair, but it isn't clear to me that is the case here.

Darrell

An understandable position. But let me ask you something, do you have copper?



This is all you get today:

[Mukha]

Turn 50 (51) status report:

[Mukha]

I'd be curious to hear what other people think. I'm not happy with most of our chosen city sites, I think we mainly settled them in the wrong order. There are a lot of food resources around and we aren't working them. I think we're aiming to have 4 cities and 8 workers by T62 which is Alphabet, Wheel, Pottery, Iron Working, HBR and Writing day. Barb armies have started to appear so we need to focus on getting some defenders up.

Also, still trying to get Rome onboard. Hopefully their last email wasn't an attempt at stalling. We have contact now with Egypt, India, Rome and Sumeria.