Uncommonly Good: A Story of Elves

[Man Behind the Mask]

Thanks for the incredible work to start with so much content, Gaspar. In contrast, I still haven’t even found time to open any of the other threads.

One point I’d like to pick up is that I agree with Mardoc on the possibility for Hippus to use mobile collateral. This is also one of the differences from base CIV. While units in BTS need to have movement remaining to perform an action, spellcasting in FFH is possible even after all MV has been exhausted.

According to the manual, Warcry applies to ALL units (not just horsies). I believe that means that you only need Mobility promo and a Haste for priests/mages to move four flatland tiles and cast into a fifth where horsies could potentially hit twice with a blitz! Because of the mechanics of haste, the last two moves on approach can be forest (although this will reduce the overall range and number of attacks the mounted units can make). Basically, I’m agreeing that they are horrible to defend against and you don't want them getting body mana.

[Mardoc]

The series finishes with an analysis of everyone's favorite apocalypse cult, Nicolae Carpathia and the Sheaim:

It's a measure of the Sheaim, that despite that exhaustive survey, I still have stuff to add.

First, they don't innately have access to Rust, as that's an Entropy spell. It's just that they're almost certain to go for Ashen Veil, which provides it from the shrine. So we're also likely to see the AV goodies - diseased corpses, ritualists, Hyborem, increased AC...

Second, the main downside to the Gate summons is that they each require a different tech and building to unlock, and those techs are all over the tree. It's unlikely that Nicolae will make it to all of them with his limited research ability. Unfortunately, it is likely that he'll make it to some of them, and honestly

Third, Nicolae's worldspell is bad for everyone, but really bad for us - AC/4% chance of setting each and every forest in the world on fire, in addition to the damage to units and cities. Depending on how close he is, we really want to consider urgently acquiring Water mana, either through trade with the Elohim or building a node. Until we kill him, he's got at least four means of burning down the forest; adepts, pyre zombies, ritualists, and worldspell.

Finally, I haven't read a lot of the Left Behind, but maybe it would be worth mining Wikipedia for hero names in the event we challenge him?

[Gaspar]

Well, inadvertently, this is working out to be a great thread for a "noob" game, as I seem to miss about 5 things every preview. I'm glad to hear that actually, seems there's real value in getting so much of it out in the open this early - better to screw it up now than when it counts.

Firstly, I appreciate the kind words, Man Behind the Mask. I joke about it in all my threads, but in this one in particular, I really am interested in as much feedback as possible, not only because I'm trying to learn as I go, but also because I am expending a lot of energy trying to entertain as well as self-educate.

I think the bottom line on the Hippus is that Hippus = scary, and Warcry = really scary. While there's no question they can hurt us, I still think we're about the worst option for them to rush, so hopefully with a little agile diplomacy, we can avoid any conflict. If we do end up fighting them, we'll have to get creative defensively, especially as we're most likely to see the scruff of their manes before we have any magic going.

With regards to the Sheaim, yeah, they're highly unlikely to see all of their Planar Gate units, and they are quite expensive. Most likely we'll run into some Tar Demons on defense, and some Mobius Witches on offense. The rest of the stuff is all pretty situational. As I've said before, there are better threads than this one to get insight into the whole Sheaim toolkit, but like the Balseraphs, they have toys all over the tree. Fortunately, also like the Balseraphs, they lack economic advantages to make them happen. Unfortunately, Aristofarms don't require a leader trait to be effective.

On a side note, I was just finishing up a game I've been playing on again off again with the Calabim, and I was running Sacrifice the Weak with loads of Aristofarms, etc. I ended up with lots of cities in the 25-35 size range, and I actually was running a ton of Citizen specialists, because even with pretty much all the buildings built, I didn't have any more specialist slots to utilize. It made me think that for this game, with the Elves who will run into the same sorts of problems (not as fast as Sacrifice the Weak, of course) we'll need to run one of the Unlimited specialist Civics to really take advantage. Liberty, I think (I don't have the game in front of me at the moment) is really late in the tree, but Scholarship I think let's you run unlimited Sages and is available a bit earlier in the tree if memory serves. Might mean Great Library becomes a priority wonder for us.

Anyway, rambling away.

[Mardoc]

Scholarship seems a decent plan. Even without it, I'm sure we'll be running Sages a good chunk of the time, with Libraries and Elder Councils, so I like the Great Library idea. Would certainly help if we could find some marble lying around somewhere...

Also, something that is likely to be important: March of the Trees cannot be cast until we've researched Way of the Forests. That's another reason for it to be a priority tech, if adding ~1 food to nearly every tile we have available weren't enough. The only other worldspell in this game that has a prereq is the Balseraph Revelry, so there's a (small) chance we may be able to bluff, but I certainly wouldn't count on that!

[Gaspar]

Also, something that is likely to be important: March of the Trees cannot be cast until we've researched Way of the Forests. That's another reason for it to be a priority tech, if adding ~1 food to nearly every tile we have available weren't enough. The only other worldspell in this game that has a prereq is the Balseraph Revelry, so there's a (small) chance we may be able to bluff, but I certainly wouldn't count on that!

That's a good point, and one I bet I'd have forgotten, so thanks for bringing it up. Its too early to get anything full in terms of tech plan, though in my head I'd probably aim for WotF right after we get the basic worker techs done (well, plus God King, but that's on the way.) Its actually kind of liberating to not feel like I need to work the Aristocracy beeline for once. Though I'd bet we end up running it for some period of time, even if just to boost the grain farms and the like.

[Gaspar]

And Turn 1 is here. Well, actually its been here for a while, but I have a job, so y'know, I can only spend 16-18 hours a day playing/talking about Civ, not 24.

Anyway, let's see what we haz here. RG, Nicolae and Kyan all settled on T1. Acostolas, Brian and Us have yet to settle.

The Chronic founded on the aforementioned spot, worker build selected, will complete in 10T, working the 3F1C Corn farm. When borders pop, we'll switch to working the Tomb of Succellus and its Ancient Forest, a 3F1H tile. Research set to Agriculture, due in 8. Scouts doing there thing. I decide to pass temptation and allow the city borders to pop that hut, and move the scout off to pastures greener. I'm going to head west generally, as we're clearly on the east coast of our continent.

Here's a picture:



And here's demos if you're into that sort of thing (I'm really not.)



That's about all the news fit to print.

[Man Behind the Mask]

After your cogent argument in the Organising Thread, and considering the fact that I might just be talking to myself if I start an actual lurker thread, I’ll continue ded-lurking here until you throw me out: :neenernee

The downside is that does mean you’ll be subjected to random ramblings and bizarre suggestions, and will provide more work for Mardoc in correcting misconceptions. At least it will up the post count

So, I’ll start with some map musings. How many times did you run the map script in your test? I ask because I’m uncertain how variable the Erebus Continent script actually is. My SP game as the elves happened to contain a very similar list of civs to PBEM3. The five common ones were arranged in exactly the same layout on the map. Given that you’ve again got Sheiam and Elohim in the game, and you’ve started on the eastern edge, I was wondering if we could guess at your southern neighbours across the jungle? If this is the case, then Tomb of Succulus Life Mana could be very handy!

PBEM3 Map Spoiler (sorry Mardoc):

Another common feature from those two maps is already visible – it looks like there is a narrow passage around the mountains and along the coast. If there is a mana node directly north of your location, then it would suggest the mapscript can be quite predictable.

Very small sample size, so this could all be rubbish, of course.

In non-map-guessing news: “Rival Best” manufacturing of 6 looks weird. Not sure how you get that on T1? Dragon Bones? It does look a little unbalancing….

[Mardoc]

MbtM, you raise some interesting points already.

I confess, the 6 MFG was confusing me too. It could maybe be something like Remnants of Patria, although I would think the mapmakers wouldn't have left it within turn-1 settling range. Or, well, it could be someone settled on a plains hill, working a plains hill forest, + 1 palace hammer. I don't think I'd want to go for such a hammer heavy start, myself, but it could be.

I think a more likely explanation is someone working on a project they get a bonus to hammers on. It has to be someone settled, so that rules out Brian and the Grigori. Can't be Tebryn yet, so that means it's either Keelyn or Rawwking. Keelyn doesn't get bonuses either on anything she could build this early, so maybe Rawwking has decided to go settler-first or granary first.

Finally, if you're right on the map musings, then hopefully Elohim is again providing us a buffer against the Zombie Horde.

[Man Behind the Mask]

MbtM, you raise some interesting points already.

That kind of comment will only encourage me

Quick thoughts on the capital…. This amount of green land is looking very good for the elves, since even the hammer tiles will be food neutral once FoL does its thing. You’re going to have to work hard at getting some commerce going - the river system would be great if the planned trees didn’t take away the coin. The river does still provide a beefed up FFH defense bonus on two sides (apart from against barb lizards). There is also some potential a long way down the line for a chokepoint fort NW(+W?) of the corn, depending on how you settle up there, and I’d consider a picket out there once barbs kick in to soak up intruders who might otherwise disrupt workers.

Silly graphics observation: is there something you need to tell us, Gaspar? You seem to have built your palace on a hill on the opposite side of the river from the city!

[Gaspar]

Enjoyed the discussion, gents, and happy to have you aboard MBTM.

Definitely had the same thought on the irony of the river start. Be great for Aristofarms if we were anyone else. I think the production will come naturally, so that's why I favor researching Education very early, going to want to get cottages down as fast as possible.

I also definitely noted the similarity to the PBEM III map. I rolled about a dozen starts, all with the same Civs and players as this game, just to see what sort of things came up. I'd say we ended up on the east coast 10 of 12 times. I didn't WB to see who else was around though. My gut says the Sheaim are going to be south of us. I don't know about Elohim, but that would be great. If we're the Sheaim's nearest neighbor, we're going to have to be prepared for aggression right from the start.

6 MFG threw me off as well. If RG is going settler first, he'll also be getting dead soon. Granary first is pretty silly as well, especially with FFHs weaker Granaries. It pretty much got to either be a plains hill plant plus a 4H tile or plains hill marble plant plus a 3H tile. What's a 4H tile? Remnants is the only thing I can conceive of thats 4H unimproved.

Mapwise, I'm most interested in who or what is north of us, because that's direction we're likely to be settling in. Bronze working is a long ways away for those jungle sites, and even then, really priesthood before we can turn those sites into what we want as Elves. So if we have a northern neighbor, we're going to be really cramped.

I won't get to the turn until late tonight (hasn't come in yet, of course) but I'll try and find time for a few flavor posts along with that. Don't want the thread to run out of steam too quickly. [Though how the hell does Rawkking have 42958 lurkers already. Maybe I'm posting too much. ]