[SPOILERS] Lurker discussion thread ... players keep out obviously

[Mist]

Well that's not valid logic - cottages also provide food. But your conclusion stands pretty well on its own, luckily. Very interesting!

I'd actually still argue my point.

That food is usually enough to feed the pop that works the cottage. Outside special cases ( Elves and Kurios ) it's not possible, or indeed advisable to get enough health to support population this big ( 21 and more ) with no food loss from unhealthiness.

And even , damn it, let's say you have 20 floodplains in the BFC, unlimited health, are financial and can be in GA till the end of the game. Cottage approach gives you 20 cottages and 10 bards for stable 260 base culture per turn. Pure bard city starve approach on the same BFC tileset gives you a theoretical population limit of 120 ( 20 x 6 food tile x 1 food per pop under StW ). Converting this all to bards translates to 1200 base cpt falling by 10 each turn. Difference is staggering, isn't it? Generally the better the terrain and health supply, the more you can gain by ditching cottages.

And on top of that, don't discount GA points. You get +3 per speialist, more specialists = more great artists in the countdown period, each great artist is 2,5k culture point to divide between your specialists for comparison against cottages. You can reliably expect to spawn at least 6. More if you were careful in early game and didn't spawn too much other Great People.

Now, as I mentioned before, elves are a special case by having less health constraints and generally more food. But even here, cottages loose out. Due to having all the tiles forested their max potential falls by 1 for forfeiting river bonus and their farms are better, because farming over ancient forest is equal to a floodplain with no unhealthiness.

[SevenSpirits]

You said bards are strictly better than cottages under all conditions. Finding flaws in this is pretty easy.

The weakest part of your argument was comparing bard pop directly to cottage pop. Thing is, cottage pop pays for itself in food while bard pop doesn't - it needs extra support pop on farms. So looking at the culture output only, and then claiming that the logical conclusion of the bards's being higher is that they are strictly better in all conditions is an unwarranted leap.

Your point is already made though. I just want you to be a better debater in the future, Mist.

[Mist]

Heh

Should have added a caveat - "A bard is strictly better than cottage in all conditions, in context of rundown to culture victory"

And to complete the exposition about Culture Victory in FFH. I consider the best faction for this to be Kurios without a shred of doubt. And in an unrestricted game the best leader for that aim is Cardith ( Phi/Fin on first swap to burn through the techs, Phi/Ind on second to complete key wonders and coast to the finish )

[Thoth]

Umm - why is there a Grigori Axeman with the Magic Resistence promo???

NM the MR promo, that at least has *some* use. WTF is up with the Sentry promo?

[Mist]

The beauty of a Tower of Mastery victory is that you don't have to commit to it early in the same way you must commit to Altar or Cultural victories.

I have to disagree with Gaspar here. Each of the three commits you to a certain tech path choices, which have to be followed upon from about the same time in the game. Altar is most rigid of the three purely by virtue of having most to tech. Culture is most flexible because the techs it requires are either cheap ( Drama ), strong ( Infernal Pact ) or otherwise useful with short payback time ( path to Taxation ). Tower on the other hand locks you into heavy arcane focus or you risk getting to it much later than people following dedicated paths are due to reach their goals.

[Square Leg]

Is it just me or does anyone else find the Elves thread particularly... heavy to read?

[Ravus Sol]

Is it just me or does anyone else find the Elves thread particularly... heavy to read?

You mean the fact that it's less the player presenting information to lurkers and more like a constant committee ratifying decisions?

[Caustic Soda]

It is rather dense. I like it though, makes it easier to follow their reasoning, and their back and forth is interesting to read. Granted Krill and Kyan are rather more concise, but they're only two people, and they seem to have a relatively clear division of labor with Krill handling Micro and Kyan handling Macro and Diplo.

[Commodore]

Brian:

But Kyan is 20 techs ahead, more than twice the soldiers (with me 2nd!) and a significant lead in both GNP and food production, thus leaving me with the conclusion that this is unwinnable aside from a grand coalition very soon after I exit my NAP over attacking Acalostas.

So...why again is this grand coalition not being pushed for? Too hard? It just boggles my mind, as it seems like not a single player in this game is playing to win anymore, besides maybe Kyan.

[uberfish]

Brian:


So...why again is this grand coalition not being pushed for? Too hard? It just boggles my mind, as it seems like not a single player in this game is playing to win anymore, besides maybe Kyan.

No idea either. Elves have their priorities wrong - you have to make sure you won't lose to conquest/domination before you can win by culture/tower.