[SPOILER] The Steak, Beer, and Cigar Saloon

[Catwalk]

Before I forget, here's some barb information:

We get a free win on our first barb battle.
Barbarians will start spawning on t30,
Barbarian cities will start spawning on t35,
We get a 5% bonus vs barbarians.
We get a 30% bonus vs animals.

[Catwalk]

Turn 5

Border pops and more scouting reveals the following

Several resources uncovered, the most important one being the grass cows over by the clams. It's definitely a better city long-term than the PH/deer one, but it would start out slower and it can't share cottages with the capital. There are still 5 black tiles in its BFC though, I guess I should explore it thoroughly next turn. If we see another resource, especially more seafood, it's all but a lock-in for second city. How much do we value early copper, though? Another small advantage for the PH/deer site is that I'll have a much easier time getting Hunting in time than AH. And once I have Hunting I get the research bonus on AH. Any thoughts?

There's also a grass cow to the west, and dry rice to the north. I'm a fan of settling on dry rice, and that location lets us share fish for a rapid start. To the far east we see icky jungle and bananas along with a decent sized inland lake. I'm also a fan of settling on jungle bananas, although it doesn't look like we can get a lighthouse on that site.

[Dhalphir]

what do you like about settling on dry rice?

Both in general and in this game.

[haphazard1]

Very interesting map info this turn. The grass cow near the crabs is excellent news, and even if there is nothing else in the fog for purple dot that is going to be a very solid city. A bit short on hammers since there are no hills in the visible tiles, but decent food and tons of commerce potential.

It looks like more water east of those cows. I wonder if that is part of the southern salt water, or a lake? If it is salt water then there may be room to fit in a coastal city that could use the banana and fresh water lake with a light house. (2S1E of the banana, maybe?) That would be a longer term thing, since IW + Calendar would be needed for the banana, but we will see. Settling on the banana is also possible as you mentioned, especially if there isn't other food to the north of the lake.

In the west the other grass cow is very good to see, although obviously more scouting info is needed. But it offers enough food to be sure that some kind of city can eventually be placed in that area.

Dry rice in the north does make a tempting target for a city. Dhalpir, settling on dry rice (or banana) gives the city center an extra food (assuming the base terrain is grassland, which I think it always is for rice and banana on normal map scripts). Since dry rice only gives 4 food anyway without chain irrigation or Biology, settling on it tends to be a good move as you get a permanent boost to the city center without giving up much. Banana is a bit tougher choice since you give up 2 fpt compared to the plantation. But in the ancient era before IW and Calendar, settling on jungled banana gets you something much earlier than waiting for the techs.

You probably already knew all that, but just in case.... For this specific game, I like that site because of the dry rice boost and because as Catwalk noted it can share the fish with the capital for a quick start. Settle on dry rice + use existing netted fish means rapid growth without needing any worker turns at all, so a quick settler can be sent out without much support and you can get another city earlier. It will also be immediately connected to the capital by coastline inside cultural borders, for extra trade route commerce. As always we need more scouting info, but the dry rice site might warrant settler #2 being pushed out very fast after settler #1 (red dot -- see below).

Scout to the cows next turn, then wherever seems best based on what is seen. NE, maybe? Vision across the water tile should reveal a good bit.

On red dot vs. purple dot, red dot will start out faster and will be able to share cottage tiles with the capital. So probably it is higher priority than purple dot, especially given the timing/research bonus of Hunting -> AH. But I would really like more scouting info to the west before committing to placing it on the plains hill.

I will try to find some time to experiment with the sandbox and micro plan, but it is a busy busy time of year.

[Catwalk]

Turn 6
That's right, a second turn rolled!

I decided to fully explore the clam/cows site, as the remaining tiles could be a deciding factor in whether or not to settle there. Nothing much discovered, but got more info about the far east. We have our first useful luxury over there, sadly it might be too far away to get anytime soon. There are several useful spots to claim the elephants, I love the inland lake over there. I think of inland lakes as super cottages, 3f3c with lighthouse and FIN. I still want Colossus pretty badly

I agree with everything haphazard said about settling on food, and It also saves you worker turns.

How should we move our scout now? We can either advance and go far, or we can backtrack and help cover our surroundings.

[Dhalphir]

I usually like to do a 7-8 tile wide circuit around my capital with the scout before sending it out further. I think effectively planning your first 4 cities beyond the capital is the most important thing you can do, and there is nothing worse than settling for a decent 2nd city site when there was one 5 tiles the opposite way from your scout.

For example, what if there's a wet corn, a plains cow, and an ivory all within reach in the fog to the west of the capital - that would make the best second city ever and we really ought to make sure.

[Catwalk]

Keep in mind that we'll have 2 warriors scouting before our settler is done, on t28 and t33 with current micro. That could look as follows (I messed up on the left scout, subtract 1 from all turn numbers):

The deer site will be thoughly scouted, the cows site will be thoroughly scouted for purposes of whether or not to put the 2nd city there (can always spend an extra turn up there if something promises pops up and we need further info), the immediate east has been scoured and the rice location has been checked as well. We should have sufficient information for determining the best site for our 2nd city, and our scout will be free to seek out opponents. I think it's crucial to scout at least one enemy capital while it's safe to do so, there won't be easy opportunities later.

I know I can be a bit stubborn, don't let my disagreement discourage you I greatly appreciate all input.

[Catwalk]

I updated the micro a little bit, added a much needed road to our expansion and finished the settler 1t sooner. Current results for t36:

Settler just built
2 workers
Warriors on t28 and t33
Bronze Working, Agriculture, Wheel and Pottery researched
1 work boat produced

EDIT: Current micro plans and the latest sandbox can be found in the 2nd post of this thread from now on.

[haphazard1]

Interesting scouting info this turn. An early happy resource is always welcome, and lots more lake tiles. Hmmm, wonder if pushing purple dot 1E would be worth it? Loses the wine (which is a decent but not great tile), but picks up the ivory and two lake tiles which can be boosted by a lighthouse. It still has a strong tile in first ring for early growth with the grass cows. Overall a stronger city with more food plus picking up the ivory earlier, although obviously a border pop would be needed to get the crabs and ivory so it would develop slower. Not sure it is worth it, but something to consider.

For the scout, you could go SE (to ivory) -> NE and loop around the southern lake. Or if you want to stay closer to the capital maybe NW -> NE and go between the lakes, with vision across the water getting some of the tiles to the east anyway. If your estimate of distance between capitals is accurate then going past the ivory is likely to reveal your rival in that direction.

[Catwalk]

To rehash, here are my thoughts on Colossus:
1) It'll be worth a lot to us. We've already seen several inland lakes and a lot of coastal sites, and we're FIN. It has the added benefit that we'll be able to crank out an early GE, guaranteeing us another wonder later.
2) We will likely be facing stiff competition for it. However, I don't think that the non-FIN players will value it that highly as coast tiles are crappy without FIN and just okay with Colossus. I think they will be prioritizing Lighthouse, Stonehenge, Pyramids and Oracle. Whoever gets the Oracle may well take Metal Casting and feel tempted to have a go at it.
3) I was arguing earlier that we'll be getting generous failgold if we don't get it in time, this is probably not the case as it'd likely fall either while we're researching Metal Casting or building a Forge. The forests themselves should take only a few turns, so it's likely an all or nothing proposition.
4) If we fail to get it, we have indeed been set back a lot. Metal Casting is not a technology I particularly need at this point, especially since I've seen no luxury metals around. If we're to go for it, it has to be all-out with a realistic expectation of getting it.
5) I'm still slightly pessimistic about our start. It feels like I'll be a turn or two behind standard results in comparable circumstances, and that will cost me greatly in a wonder race.
6) Going for it means delaying the following short-term tech goals: Animal Husbandry, Writing, Mathematics, Currency. It also means delaying my expansion a fair bit.

I'm still slightly in favour of it, and Dhalphir stated that he's not keen on it. haphazard, what do you say?