[Spoilers] CH tries to be more than a warm body

[Cheater Hater]

Everything's going fine over here, but I do have some things I want opinions on. No pictures unfortunately (since I'm away from my computer), but not much has changed on that scale.

Tech: I finished Writing last turn, and turned off research for a turn on Math--is that->Currency still where we want to go? I'm probably founding C3 before Currency would come in (unless the Gems are more helpful than I think), and I don't know how well I can estimate tech timings when break-even is constantly changing. Other than Currency, the only thing I think I really want is CoL, and I don't have that much production to spare on Courthouses right now. Still, after Currency I have to research something--maybe backfill Sailing, then IW and Metal Casting, then see if I need either HR?

Cuzco: Cuzco finally finishes the Settler at EOT, and then I have pencilled in another Worker--is that wise? Maybe I'm just supposed to let it grow, by 2-pop whipping a Terrace, then building some military (probably Chariots?). Thinking about it, I like the Worker since it's quick and means my military builds are delayed somewhat until I connect the copper. Speaking of which, when am I building the C3 Settler? Am I supposed to go into that right after the Worker? I guess that could work: build the Worker (takes 3 turns after overflow I think), have it go NE and chop into the Settler (then set up C3), whip to finish (probably 2-pop with overflow?), then slow-build a Terrace while regrowing. I need to plug numbers into the micro sheet (maybe both Workers head to C3, and another is built at either Cuzco after/in the middle of the Terrace), but that seems reasonable.

TW: The Terrace completes this turn, and after finishing the Quecha I started forever ago, I have no clue what to build here. Complicating things further is that I don't think I'm sharing the corn with C2 anymore--it would only be for 1 turn anyway (since the pasture completes in 2), and that turn TW's one away from growing, so that feels bad. Maybe I build a Worker here after growth, so I can start cottaging and get the stone connected. I also need to get a Work Boat out of here soon, probably after the Worker.

C2: No reason not to start a Terrace here, right? It'll even get a chop naturally when I improve the marble!

[Fenn]

Re Cuzco: I dunno if you should 2-pop whip a Settler in there, especially before you have a Terrace, since it only has one 5-food tile, and that you'll want to share with the eastern city. Cuzco's the next best food tile is just 3f. Maybe go Worker -> Terrace -> Settler and have the Worker chop the Silks tile? That depends on if you have any plans for wonder-chopping in Cuzco. Still I think you should let Cuzco grow onto Cottages and let Tiwanaku (which has a very large food surplus and can share Wheat with another city) do whipping.

Tiwanaku would be good for whipping out Settlers and Workers in the short term; it has lots of food and whipping is much easier when you have CHA's happiness buffer. Getting Cottages down is good too, it has two riverside grasslands and four riverside grass hills/plains it could share with other cities. For now I'd take it towards hammers and whipping.

As for tech, what would you use Sailing for? Work Boats can scout coastlines pretty decently, so unless you want Galleys for something in particular Sailing can be safely delayed - at least until you find a good Moai spot. Its other benefits (Lighthouses and coastal trade routes) aren't very attractive on their own. Or do you want to try for a wonder? Since you're picking up Masonry and Stone, the Pyramids are a possibility; TW has four forests it can chop (180 hammers w/Stone), Cuzco has six forests to chop (270 hammers), and C2 has eight forests it could chop (360h); you might be able to make up the difference with whip overflows.

Or, since you'll get Marble hooked up soon, after teching Currency go for Calendar and chop out the Mausoleum of Mausollos in C2. That's a little risky since Calendar is otherwise only good for two Silks tiles in your territory. You could of course precede all this by teching Metal Casting and building a Forge in your wonder city for more efficiency. Iron Working can IMO wait until you have at least two cities wanting to work jungled tiles.

[Cheater Hater]

Re Cuzco: I dunno if you should 2-pop whip a Settler in there, especially before you have a Terrace, since it only has one 5-food tile, and that you'll want to share with the eastern city. Cuzco's the next best food tile is just 3f. Maybe go Worker -> Terrace -> Settler and have the Worker chop the Silks tile? That depends on if you have any plans for wonder-chopping in Cuzco. Still I think you should let Cuzco grow onto Cottages and let Tiwanaku (which has a very large food surplus and can share Wheat with another city) do whipping.

Tiwanaku would be good for whipping out Settlers and Workers in the short term; it has lots of food and whipping is much easier when you have CHA's happiness buffer. Getting Cottages down is good too, it has two riverside grasslands and four riverside grass hills/plains it could share with other cities. For now I'd take it towards hammers and whipping.

As for tech, what would you use Sailing for? Work Boats can scout coastlines pretty decently, so unless you want Galleys for something in particular Sailing can be safely delayed - at least until you find a good Moai spot. Its other benefits (Lighthouses and coastal trade routes) aren't very attractive on their own. Or do you want to try for a wonder? Since you're picking up Masonry and Stone, the Pyramids are a possibility; TW has four forests it can chop (180 hammers w/Stone), Cuzco has six forests to chop (270 hammers), and C2 has eight forests it could chop (360h); you might be able to make up the difference with whip overflows.

Or, since you'll get Marble hooked up soon, after teching Currency go for Calendar and chop out the Mausoleum of Mausollos in C2. That's a little risky since Calendar is otherwise only good for two Silks tiles in your territory. You could of course precede all this by teching Metal Casting and building a Forge in your wonder city for more efficiency. Iron Working can IMO wait until you have at least two cities wanting to work jungled tiles.

Before I respond, let's get an updated picture of the area:


Cuzco: While I'm realizing there isn't quite as much food as I would want pre-Lighthouse (more on that below), it's not quite as bad as you said--the cows are 4 food, and the city that would share the fish isn't being founded for a while (I even have it as a filler city--if I settle an eastern city like the plains hill I shouldn't need that city for a while I would think). Still, I need to get more cities out quickly (most of my contacts have their third city out), and getting the C3 Settler out of Cuzco is the easiest way to do so.

TW: Whipping here is certainly a good thing, especially since the Terrace has already been built. The problem is that it still needs to grow a bunch, but wants to build a bunch of food-hammer units (Workers, Work Boats, the C4 Settler) along with the military to cover all my cities. If I go Worker->Work Boat at size 4 there (5 turns I think?), build some military up to size 5, then build the C4 Settler with a 2-pop whip (along with probably a chop) everything should work fine. It also shouldn't need to focus military--C2 will build a bunch after finishing the Terrace, though it'll probably get a Worker at size 3 while working the 3 resources.

Tech: Sailing would mostly be for the Lighthouses, which I'm probably overvaluing (though I'd need it for the Whales at the far-east city, as well as your Calendar plan). Currency is probably just the best choice, followed by either Metal Casting or CoL based on raw strength.

Wonders: Why would I want the Pyramids? I get that Representation is obviously strong, but CHM means I'm missing a lot of the benefit, at least early (especially since the beakers don't come until Libraries or Caste System, neither of which I'm prioritizing right now). Similarly, MoM would be nice, but Calendar is basically useless otherwise. I'm assuming that since I have easy access to stone and marble, other civs would too (particularly the Industrious ones). If there's any wonders I want to try for (and again, I'm not sure I do), why not Great Lighthouse?

[Cheater Hater]

Two posts in one day? I'll be honest; even though I have some interesting stuff in this report, the main reason I'm posting is to give me an excuse to post the newest revision of the worker micro sheet (and get it on the new page). I've really started to dig into the sheet, going to around T60 even (with some uncertainties based on Settler timing/border pops, as expected)--I'm surprised with how much I'm investing; trying to avoid losing worker turns and such.


As you can see, I've almost rejoined my prior scouting in the east! As you can see, I've reordered my dotmap because of this:


The borders to Serdoa's (presumed) third city are visible 2N of my Chariot! This means I need to speed up my settlement a bit, especially since I really want that C4 spot. Obviously I need to settle C3 first for the copper (and maybe even research Archery), but then I want to make sure I get the western gems spot as well (ceding the NW Whale spot, as Fenn suggested, unless Donovan Zoi stops building military or something), so that's C5. After that, C6 and C7 (the plains hill, and the far east C?--the clams made that decision easy), then depending on Serdoa's settling I can either try to get some NE cities (that copper/gold/pigs/marble city looks juicy, but it's so much of a reach I haven't even marked it yet), backfill some cities, or start playing truer to my password for the game.

Speaking of aggro, now that I have a bunch of graphs (only Elkad remains), let's check in on the early power rankings:


And you can see why I have reason to worry about Donovan Zoi (and also why I need to revolt into Slavery, which I just remembered to do--updated pictures are now up )


Not much special here (I obviously took it before I revolted)--food is low since everyone else is on three cities, GNP need more cottages and/or to connect my precious metal (mapmaker question you can answer if you wish: were the gems at C2 supposed to be jungled like all the other gold/silver/gems I've seen?) and/or research a tech with more prerequisites/more widely known, production is good since I have a ton of mines.


Risky scouting! Not because of the Bear, but because I might get trapped

[Fenn]

I didn't consider how CHA would half-obsolete Representation, my bad. Don't rely on me for expert advice.

I thought GLH was more expensive than it actually was, but looking at it it's just 200 hammers...that's quite doable, and GLH would be useful to all your coastal cities - but if you want it you'll probably have to hurry, anybody can chop 6 forests. But yeah it's probably a better risk to take, you could set it up so that you chop 6 forests in two turns and minimize the chance that you'll get nothing but failgold.

I'm pretty sure Serdoa's going to grab that Copper/Sheep/Gold/Marble/Pigs/Fish area, there's too much barren land between you and him and his borders will block DZoi off too. He'll probably get the Deer/Cow/Clam spot 3S of his newest city unless DZoi can preempt him.

C6 would be a decent place to put Moai - 7 coast and a lake, and plenty of forests so you can actually build the statues easily. It's not ideal, but it's fast and that counts for a lot.

You can always declare war on Elkad and try to escape his borders that way - if you don't step on his good tiles he might even spare the Scout!

[Cheater Hater]

I didn't consider how CHA would half-obsolete Representation, my bad. Don't rely on me for expert advice.

I thought GLH was more expensive than it actually was, but looking at it it's just 200 hammers...that's quite doable, and GLH would be useful to all your coastal cities - but if you want it you'll probably have to hurry, anybody can chop 6 forests. But yeah it's probably a better risk to take, you could set it up so that you chop 6 forests in two turns and minimize the chance that you'll get nothing but failgold.

I'm pretty sure Serdoa's going to grab that Copper/Sheep/Gold/Marble/Pigs/Fish area, there's too much barren land between you and him and his borders will block DZoi off too. He'll probably get the Deer/Cow/Clam spot 3S of his newest city unless DZoi can preempt him.

C6 would be a decent place to put Moai - 7 coast and a lake, and plenty of forests so you can actually build the statues easily. It's not ideal, but it's fast and that counts for a lot.

You can always declare war on Elkad and try to escape his borders that way - if you don't step on his good tiles he might even spare the Scout!

GLH does require the Lighthouse (is the ORG/IND leader in play?) and neither Sailing nor Masonry are must-get techs. The problem is that I would want to get Sailing now and build the Lighthouse right away--if it goes in Cuzco it delays Settlers, and in TW it delays military (though it would be something to grow on in either case.

Of course, if we want a wonder so badly we should be looking at the one so obvious it was right under our nose: Hanging Gardens! Think about it: Math is on the way to Currency, we have stone, EXP means cheap Aquaducts (again, is EXP/IND in play?), and we could get the C4 Settler out of TW while building it in Cuzco! Is there anything I'm missing?

I'm not trapped in Elkad's territory yet--I might get trapped behind his borders, but I have so much to scout over there one of us might have Alphabet by the time he gets back

[Cheater Hater]

Yes, it's been a while, and the expected T50 report is very late. Still, I'm here and ready to report something. Let's start with a capital overview:


Not much new here--C3 will be settled next turn (barring an extremely unlucky barb spawn on the copper) and will build a Terrace until at least size 2, the Work Boat in TW will be delayed a turn to finish a needed Chariot (as I lost a Quecha recently to barbs--unfortunately it was my Woodsman II one ), and Cuzco will grow on a Terrace to at least size 5. Machu Picchu (the former C2, abbreviated MP) has been building a Quecha, and I think it'll 1-pop whip the Terrace (as if it grows it'll either work an unimproved tile or take the corn for a turn)--the question is whether I whip it next turn (earliest possible) or on T57. If I whip it now it gets one turn of food into the Terrace, but whipping on T57 means I never stop working the gems (or the sheep, but that would negate most of the benefits of the extra turn of food, assuming it would even grow). A lot of the micro around Granaries I haven't really understood (as I thought most of it was minimized), so some help would be appreciated. Afterwards I'll build military until size 3 at least, then maybe a Worker based on the timing on improving the sheep/the borders popping?

Of course, you aren't interested in the minor micro in my small cities, you're interested in the teaser from my last post about my first real wonder plan. The problem is that I can't just tunnel in on Hanging Gardens. Cuzco shouldn't be that difficult to actually build HG in since it has a ton of forests, but I have four priorities right now:
1. Build more military: I have a feeling MP's going to have to bear a lot of this responsibility, since Cuzco would be building the Aquaduct/HG, TW needs to accomplish other goals, and C3 is too new and wants the Terrace ASAP. Even if, say, MP builds a Chariot+Axe(+maybe Spear) in a reasonable time, I would have to whip to do so, and I'd rather not whip out military if I'm not directing contributing towards a conflict.
2. Build at least one more Worker: At the very least, I need someone to chop the forests at Cuzco, in addition to supporting MP, C3, and C4. The easiest Worker to build is out of TW, probably with a 1-pop whip. There's also the possibility of one coming out of MP as mentioned above, but that leaves my military in a bad situation.
3. Settle C4, and possibly C5 as well: How many cities do I want for HG to be a good build? If we assume C4 is a guarantee (it'll come out of TW, probably right after the Worker and aided by a chop), how much would I need to stretch for the C5 Settler? There's no reason for Cuzco not to chain Settlers, and if that Settler was 2-pop whipped the numbers could work. Again, I need to have a decent amount of military to guard both cities, and I don't think a Quecha for each city plus a roving Chariot or two is good enough when my neighbor has Impis. In addition, getting to 6 cities before Currency seems like a bad idea.
4. Build the Aquaduct and Hanging Gardens: The Aquaduct is 50 hammers since I'm EXP, and HG is ~200 hammers (does it always round down on odd numbers of hammers?) when I hook up my stone (coming on T64 at the current pace; I can save 2 turns by not finishing the TW cottage and moving to the stone next turn). Here's a look at Cuzco:


Right now I have a lot of possible hammers: 7 HPT base, 3 more if I work the ivory, and each additional mine is 3 more (not even counting camping the ivory, which'll probably get delayed again. Mathematics is set to arrive in 4 turns (unless it gets delayed by C4 coming in--probably not, and worst case I can work the clams at C3 instead of the cows for a turn or two to help), which is coincidentally when Cuzco will grow. If I swapped right to the Aquaduct, it would complete in 5 turns, then there would be 20 turns max for HG before chops are involved. More math is coming, but here are the stats.

I have more to say for the report (including graphs, scouting, and a worker micro update, along with the detailed plan for HG), but I'll have to come back to this later.

[Cheater Hater]

It's time for part 2 of the T55 report! First I have a new iteration of the worker micro sheet--it doesn't go out as far as I want (only until T64 for Worker E), but a lot of that comes from not knowing exactly when Worker F is coming out of TW (I have it as T65, but it depends on how much my growth is sped up by working the fish, as well as when I'll be able to 1-pop whip--it might even be a turn earlier, which would be great!).

I also promised more on the HG plan, but unfortunately I don't have much there. I know I want to finish the Terrace first (meaning the likely path is Terrace->Aquaduct->HG), and the first chop is coming in on T63 (which should hopefully go into the Aquaduct--it shouldn't matter when the chops come in, since I just need 250 raw hammers). Right now I'm not planning on rushing the chops, instead taking time to camp the ivory first, then chopping the forest 1S of that on T70 (or T68 if I want to waste a Worker turn). That's 60 hammers on T70, and if I'm starting the Aquaduct on T63 (though it might be earlier; I can swap to a bunch of mines on T59 after Cuzco grows), and if I average 15HPT in Cuzco over the time (again, wild guess, and seems a little high), that sets HG completing on T73. The problem is that I don't have nearly enough time to get the S4 Settler completed in TW, much less settled, and that doesn't even consider the S5 site I want.

I think that means I want the S4 Settler to come out of MP, and the Settler from TW goes to S5. That actually isn't as crazy as it sounds: after T63 the two Workers in the MP/C3 area are only pasturing the sheep (after using a couple Worker turns roading while waiting for borders to pop), and they could easily be diverted to a chop (probably 2N of the gems, assuming I can fog-bust appropriately), and I'll still have plenty of time to pasture the sheep (which is primarily a C4 improvement, at least to start), even if I decide to speed it up with a 1-pop whip. This should actually work, especially since there's no reason MP shouldn't regrow to size 3 around T62 or so, and it only needs to produce 40 hammers by itself (at 9FHPT, that's ~T67, then the chop comes in and I whip, to finish before T70!) That also speeds up the C5 Settler, since we can whip what would be the first one (and an earlier whip means I can delegate more mines to Cuzco, and I can build more military during the regrowth)--everything looks like it's working!

Of course, I need to detail this to make sure everything works out. In particular, the C5 Settler is still a little close, but it's getting 50H for free. I think what'll happen is that I can chop at TW (1NE of the stone), finish the chop T67, 2-pop whip T68 (I assume I can get 20 hammers in 3 turns), settle T70. Again, my military is the main issue (I'm estimating having something like 1 Quecha+1 Chariot for C4 and C5, along with a Quecha for C3), but hopefully the grace period between finishing the Settlers and finishing HG allows me to build Axes in TW, MP, and C3 I can quickly shuttle to the front lines. I also need to not crash on the way to Currency; I have ~10 turns before C4 and C5 are settled to make progress/save up, the gems still help, and I'll have 3 cottages down by the time HG completes (I'll cottage the forest I chop on T70).

This post was a lot longer than I thought it was going to be--please comment something, even if it's like "I read it, but have no idea what to think". This goes double for you, Fenn--I've been overvaluing Hanging Gardens for a while (all the way back to PBEM 58 and PB18), so if I'm still overvaluing it (or missing something in my planning) please let me know!

I have more to write (scouting, graphs, foreign stuff), but it might have to wait until the next turn.

[Fenn]

I read every update, even if I don't always have something useful to say

I would absolutely advise you to settle C4/C5 and have some military there before you complete HG; it's not worth building if the benefit only applies to four cities, and you really want C4/C5 in particular to establish a solid border with Donovan. Having HG would also make you a tempting target to Mr. Impis, especially if your border cities have just one or two defenders. Most of the other cities you could plant are fillers or in your backline and so can safely be delayed in favour of HG.

HG is probably worth the effort in your case; EXP/CHA with Stone makes it easier to build and more lucrative, so even though T73 seems pretty early to me, I do think going for it early will help you out in the long run.

[GermanJoey]

How many cities do you have right now?