August 12th, 2016, 07:30
(This post was last modified: August 12th, 2016, 07:34 by WarriorKnight.)
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Been thinking about GP's and the Communism/Steam Power dilemma this afternoon, and am going to give some more clarification on our game plan. Wall of text incoming!
First off, we definitely should try to build an academy in the cap, as we are going to hyper-charge research there and should aim for all the boosts we can get. So we should aim for a GS as our 2nd GP (no change to 1st GE usage, either bulb most of Gunpowder or (unlikely) snip a wonder).
Every other GP should almost certainly go towards a Golden Age. I'll admit it's not the best strategy for short term tech but as the Dutch we are mostly geared towards the long term, and by the time we start researching towards Rifling we should really start to take off. Ideally we get a GS 2nd for an academy and then use our 3rd one for the 1 man GA, although it'll be difficult to create a pure GS pool due to merc so we should also consider using the 2nd GP as a GA to make a GS with Caste/Pacifism.
GA No.1
During the 1st GA we should aim for a civic swap into Rep, and maybe our state religion too if we haven't by then. Hopefully we can get Oxford up as well, although Econs probably isn't worth it (Free Market depends entirely on how many other people have Economics and give us OB, shortly after this time teams will probably start to embargo OB against us even if they do have Econs so we should probably stick to Rep/Merc).
GA No.2
The 2nd GA should be used to beeline straight to Communism, swapping into State Property during it. If we can get Dikes up during that time then awesome, but my point is we shouldn't hold off on the 2nd GA until after Dikes are up (so we should go Communism first). Reason is I find it very unlikely that we will be given enough time to build Dikes peacefully and then trigger the 2 man GA, we may need the GA to get our bonuses up in the first place. We should save the Dike GA abuse for a 3 man GA if we can get it (and the Spy at Communism/Scientist at Physics should be very helpful for that goal), that will hopefully be enough to push the game into a win.
Summary:
Our main game plan is ideally to get Communism before anyone else, using FIN tech to get the techs ASAP (boosted with Golden Ages) and turning that into early Steam Power (and Dikes). This may also translate into Assembly Line/Railroad before anyone else, although by that point I'm not sure where the hammers to build factories will come from (without already being in a game winning position).
That said, this is pure speculation from a pregame perspective. We need to be isolated enough to be able to pull this off (6 players on a standard map is a good start, but Byzcoti doesn't help and France can still be pick for early aggression). The more ocean on the map the better, as Dutch love water and our UU should be dominant there for a long time. That said, if the variables do fall into place then I'm not sure what the others can do in response. 
On a more relevant note, we do need to decide on which tech we want to research first. Gunpowder is a poor choice because we can bulb it. I originally pushed for Nationalism, but now I wonder if we should go for Astronomy? It'll take at least 20t to get either regardless, but we may find a use for Astro around t30-40 (either Observatory in cap or EI raiding parties  ) Nationalism is only useful as a pre-req to MT if we miss Taj and it is very likely we will miss it.
August 12th, 2016, 08:41
(This post was last modified: August 12th, 2016, 09:59 by WarriorKnight.)
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On a completely unrelated note, I would like to ask lurker opinion on a rule clarification I made:
(July 17th, 2016, 23:10)WarriorKnight Wrote: After considering the alternatives, I have decided to ban all aerial bombardment as a solution to plane turn split abuse. Reasons for turning down other alternatives (from least to most viable) are as follows:- Bombardment ban only on strategic resources - Solves the most broken aspect of aerial bombardment, but doesn't solve all issues regarding bombardment. Since differences between the 1st and 2nd person in the split should ideally be minimized, this is not viable.
- Sequential turns - Solves vast majority of all turn split issues, but absolutely kills turn pace with 5+ players without adjusting player order according to play window (and even then, 7 players simultaneous is too much even with that addition). A possibility if down to 3-4 players, but has to be considered on a case-by-case basis.
- The 1-2-1 turn split - The best compromise that tries to equally balance both turn split issues and turn pace, but complicates the turn split more by adding a third slot. A viable alternative but IMO it is better to avoid a third split to keep the game running as simply and smoothly as possible.
It is true that banning all bombardment nerfs air power, but being enacted before T0 means that everyone is still on the same boat so no unbalance has been caused. First post has been updated to include this rule.
My intention on banning aerial bombardment was to ban bombardment on tile improvements only. It was not to ban:
A) bombing of cities or
B) air strikes on units
However, the way I have worded the rule doesn't clearly define the three. Looking at the rule as it is written, I would initially assume that A is banned while B is not. So my question is:
1) Is it easy for anyone to have a different interpretation to the rule then my own interpretation (A is banned while B is ok)? Has any team stated their interpretation is different then mine just now?
2) Is it worth revisiting this to clarify before the game starts? Since picks have been made already it is not ideal but better now then at the end of the game potentially forcing a premature end.
Honestly, I would rather not to bring this up. If the end result is that city bombardment is also banned, then so be it (as that is what was written during signups). It is far better that we are all on the same page then to turn a blind eye however so I think I will have to, and ideally I can reword the rule to limit bombardment on all tile improvements (as that is what the rule was intended to do and no more). I won't do anything without everyone's input, but since we haven't started yet it should be ok to do so once the snake-pick is finished right?
Mardoc, if it does turn out to be worth discussing this before starting then can you hold off finishing/sending off the map until this has been resolved?
EDIT: Clarified the ideal rewording to 'ban bombardment on all resources', rather than what I originally wrote: 'ban bombardment on strategic resources'
2nd EDIT: Thanks to Dreylin, the wording is now correct. The ban should be on all tile improvements, not only resources. Ignore the first edit above.
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Seems to me you have the right conclusion. Much better to figure out the rules before the game starts, but definitely not during the snakepick.
(August 12th, 2016, 08:41)WarriorKnight Wrote: Mardoc, if it does turn out to be worth discussing this before starting then can you hold off finishing/sending off the map until this has been resolved?
 You're asking if I'm ok with having more time?
Yes. Well, I will still work on the map because I don't see any reason that air rules would affect the map, but I can save the last step of sending to the host until you're in consensus.
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(August 12th, 2016, 08:50)Mardoc Wrote: Well, I will still work on the map because I don't see any reason that air rules would affect the map, but I can save the last step of sending to the host until you're in consensus.
Thanks. And yes, by all means keep working on the map, just don't send it off.
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When you say "resources" do you mean "tile improvements", or just actual Resources (Pigs, Sugar, Coal, etc.)?
PB33 we banned on Tile Improvements and I don't think anyone thought that you couldn't bombard down city defenses - though it really didn't come up since REM was the only one with Flight and didn't get any Bombers out.
I think people will assume that the same is true here, but I don't see why it would be an issue to bring it up after the picks are completed; I doubt there's a pick-specific strategy that depends on whether or not Air power is available to hit city defenses. Is there!? 
August 12th, 2016, 09:34
(This post was last modified: August 12th, 2016, 09:36 by WarriorKnight.)
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(August 12th, 2016, 09:06)Dreylin Wrote: When you say "resources" do you mean "tile improvements", or just actual Resources (Pigs, Sugar, Coal, etc.)?
Wow, I thought my 1st edit was ok but apparently not. I did indeed mean 'all tile improvements' and not resources. Thanks.
(August 12th, 2016, 09:06)Dreylin Wrote: PB33 we banned on Tile Improvements and I don't think anyone thought that you couldn't bombard down city defenses - though it really didn't come up since REM was the only one with Flight and didn't get any Bombers out.
I think people will assume that the same is true here, but I don't see why it would be an issue to bring it up after the picks are completed; I doubt there's a pick-specific strategy that depends on whether or not Air power is available to hit city defenses. Is there!?
I admit that it incredibly likely to be a non-issue, and even if it did it probably won't affect anyone in a huge way. However if it does come up, game rules are law (especially in the late game). The best example that comes to mind is PBEM8, where I won using nukes. I'm 100% sure everyone assumed that nukes were banned when we discussed pregame settings. However they weren't, and as such they were the deciding factor.
Admittedly, this issue is nowhere near as big of a deal as nukes, but people make incorrect assumptions all the time (just look at dave upthread on the initial screenshot, sorry pal  ) and rule-lawyering is never fun. Additionally people can get incredibly emotional due to putting a lot of time and effort into these games. Mixing emotions and rule-layering is a recipe for disaster, and can potentially cause the death of games. For obvious reasons, I'd like to avoid that as much as possible by making everything crystal clear before we start.
August 12th, 2016, 12:48
(This post was last modified: August 12th, 2016, 13:09 by oledavy.)
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There is a lot to respond to here (and yet we still are at the bottom of the forum as I post this). I will admit it does bother me a tiny bit that Scooter and Sullla's thread has a much higher proportion of views to posts than ours, but alas, c'est la vie. I really shouldn't have expected anything else. Besides, if early posting is any indicator, we'll have at least 3 high quality threads to plow through at the end of this game 
As far as aerial bombardment rules go, I only followed PB33 in passing, but the clarification seems solid to me. As discussed earlier in Gchat, I think it's best to just let the snake pick finishe before posting about it. However, I doubt the change will be controversial. As it seems the snake pick will wrap up before you wake up, I'll let you post the proposed rule clarifications. One advantage of you and me living on opposite sides of the world, it occurs to me, is we can keep a constant stream of post content at all hours  It's nice to wake up as I did this morning with a number of new posts to read with my coffee.
Now, onto actual game content.
Tech Path Thoughts
Not super hyped about Nationalism. Without SPI, the civic is notably weaker. I think the main compelling reason to research it is for the Taj, which I think Alhazard has a lock on if he wants. Idk, with Marble we might be able to do something, but I can't help but feel he'll just bulb it, hook up his own marble, and wham bam thank you mam he'll have the TM. The Golden Age would be lovely, but it's main impact early would be for churning out great people. If you're IMP, you don't want to be running too many specialists early IMHO.
It does however, lead to MT, which is a really compelling reason to research it sooner rather than later since Cav are going to be the main offensive unit people use for a long time. That being said, even with GP early, I think we can skate by without curs for awhile. I'm at least comfortable putting it off until after rifling.
As a follow up, unless we find a substantial amount of coast near a neighbor early, I don't think we want to start off on astronomy. EIs will still be useful early on, but doing anything other than opportunistic raiding is unlikely to produce worthwhile results. The Observatory is nice, but if we want a science building for our BC capital early, I would rather get Education for universities(which is also on the path to Communism). Additionally, Oxford is going to be key for us, and the sooner we can get it up in the capital the better.
Don't want economics until we have rifles, because castles may prove critical fighting Cats, (although that GM would be very nice). I don't think FM is compelling enough to prefer over Mercantilism, that early anyway, while Great people are still relatively cheap.
Question, how much of Gunpowder does a GE bulb?
We could start off by researching the amount we need to out of GP, and then switch to the tech that benefits us most in the given circumstance (Astronomy if ample water, education if opponents are distant, PP if we need to get rifles faster).
The more I think about it, the more I think we need to win the liberalism race if we want to make a push for Communism. We may be ascribing too much importance to the tech, but then again, SP will be a must-have civic this game, and landing Kremlin would be a coup. Not even to mention that it's free GSPY puts us closer to the golden age we'll need.
Liberalism could also bulb Astronomy, a pretty expensive tech, we would at that point be three techs away from Communism (5 if we get rifles first).
As an aside, Great Scientists will be the easiest Great person for us to get early on, and they bulb stuff on the path to Communism:
Great Scientist Bulb List
And of course, we need to be careful about being so inflexible going into a game that we're not willing to adapt our plans. Losing the race to Communism won't lose the game for us. Dependable solid play that keeps us alive will always leave us with a chance to win, and so if the choice is take a risky beeline path to Comm with Mack nearby or tech to rifles ASAP, we go with the latter.
But no, with that being said, let's plan on trying to nab Communism first, but be ready to change depending on who our neighbors are and what they're doing. On the plus side, even if we lose the race, SP is still game-changing enough to really want Communism sooner rather than later.
With this in mind, I think this should be our tech path:
1.Open with researching whatever amount we need to so that the bulb will complete funpowder.
2A. If we border a rival over a sizable sea, research Astronomy
2B. If Mackoti is remotely near or another opponent is close and is going for rifles or military tradition, research Printing Press
2C. If we have some distance, research Education and aim for an early Oxford.
I think with some well-timed great scientists, we could make a serious push for liberalism and communism. I'll elaborate more on that in my next post, and I'll address your thoughts on academy and dike timing.
In the meantime, as far as theme goes my initial thought was the Harlem Renaissance, but I'm not sold on it as it is something American-specific. Also, can't wait for the snake pick to finish so we can start doing the ads
Let me know what you think of my evolving tech thoughts! This is all unknown territory to me, so I could be completely overestimating or underestimating the value of something and welcome your critiques.
Finally, Alhazard picks Ottomans. I'm guessing he got spooked by Mackoti, because I would have gone with Russia or France in his shoes.
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I read every thread if it's any consolation.
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I read yours too, just because I still feel guilty about PBEM17  .
Darrell
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If it's any consolation, oledavy, your thread here already has about 25% of my PB 32 thread views, which is a game past turn 150, where I waged a big war (and while I spent sometime without reporting, I think I've been pretty consistent with it for the most part).
So, yeah, there are worse places to be.
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