WW20: Legend of the Undercity

[Jkaen]

Serdoa, I hope that also explains why I said at one point I would not vote ichabod day 1 (in the end i saw no better option) but may be convinced to day 2 or 3. It was me wanting to keep him alive until I get my memory back

[novice]

I would not clear him for whom he attacked, but for getting attacked quite often by Gaspar. And with Tasunke, often a spark can be enough to get him lynched - exactly because of the behaviour of many players, voting him off for no reason, just because they are too lazy to search for the good within all the crazy. And I have the feeling that Gaspar tested the waters in that regard. He brought Tasunkes name up several times throughout his posts. Thats enough for me to not pursue Tasunke right now.

True, but Gaspar's accusations against Tasunke were fairly anemic ("he seems jittery" and "why hasn't he roleclaimed yet") - it could be testing the waters, but it could also be distancing. Especially since Tasunke's accusations against Gaspar were equally anemic.

Here's the post where Gaspar does his biggest rundown on other players:

Few non-Gasparcentric thoughts (in fairness, it is my favorite topic)

• I agree with the general consensus that a player disappearing completely from view under pressure is a pretty huge newbie wolf scumtell. WW16 was pretty eye-opening for me because it was my first time playing as scum as the "leader of the pack" and there are just some players who aren't comfortable with lying. Flug might be one of those players. I'm willing to give him an extra day because I feel more certain about Bigger.
  
• I find myself agreeing with Serdoa a lot. I never agree with Serdoa a lot, I don't think this is a good sign.
  
• I don't want to vote Ichabod because I can't really tell what percentage of his scumminess is just him being goofy and what percentage is him being scummy because scum. He's earned his heat though.
  
• Ryan - you're making my head hurt.
  
• What happened to Tasunke? Shouldn't he be revealing his role by now?
  
• I actually agree with zak that Azza makes a decent D1 policy lynch, though I think we have better candidates.
  

Very scummy post in hindsight, of course. Anyway, notice how he leaves the option of lynching Flug, Ichabod, Serdoa and Ryan open, and makes weak pushes on Tasunke, Bigger and Azza.

I know especially Lewwyn would game this assumption, but I'm nevertheless going to assume that Gaspar wouldn't make a post like this without mentioning packmates. Could be Ichabod, I feel Tasunke or Azza is more likely though.

About Ichabod:

Gaspar stated several hours before lynch already that he would vote flug if necessary. He certainly would have - and he would have had the explanation for it if it had become necessary. Otherwise, don't you think when flug shows innocent and Gaspar just at the last moment had decided to vote for him instead of Ichabod we had questioned him? I sure would have. But with posting his intent several hours before, he could make sure to put his vote on flug without actually putting it there, discouraging others to vote for Ichabod, as it would be a lost cause anyhow. I think it is a great wolf play to circumvent the normal heat they catch if they save one of theirs with a last-minute-switch.

I see what you're saying, but given the close race, wouldn't Gaspar make good on his promise and make absolutely sure Ichabod didn't hang by voting Flug at the end? After all that's what he's prepared the ground to do, hours earlier. So yeah, the preparation makes sense if Ichabod is scum, but the execution (as it were) doesn't.

[Qgqqqqq]

this summer subject I'm doing

Best hemisphere

*Highfive*

I like the explanation JKaen.
I still disagree (serdoa) that tasunke can be cleared by it, though definitely not considering a lunch today.

[Lewwyn]

Meiz did an excellent job breaking the Molach case down some more. Let's look at your defense Molach:

Flug, QT et al.
I did make the promise to not quote in the thread, because I didn't know that he would keep staying silent in main thread. I think it was a necessary step to get him to open up. I told him repeatedly to just post, be honest. If I make a promise like this in any future game, Civ or WW, then I'll respect it. But consider if I'm playing like a wolf would or just making a bad call about the whole business. I suggest they are not the same.

You did tell him to post in the main thread but it wasn't like you were banging down the door. You didn't say, hey you have to go post in the main thread or you will be lynched. Not explicitly. I mean I read it and it sounded like you were parsing off a bit of small advice when in fact it was life or death at that point!

Lewwyn, my motivation was more 'lynching BRick' than saving Ichabod. Lynch the better target. To illustrate, before lynch I would have Ichabod 20% scum risk (down from 25% at start of game) And BRick ...35%. So lynch BRick is better than lynching Ichabod. If you're convinced Ichabod is a wolf on the block why no mention of Rowain, by the way?

Couple things, first, if your intention was to lynch Brick instead of saving Ichabod, OR Flug for that matter!, then you certainly didn't do a good job explaining that while the vote was still going. Seems like you went ahead and outlined your case better after the lynch had already happened! Your vote during the day and your cursory explanation of your vote against Brick were laughable.

Second I'm not convinced Ichabod is a wolf. I do think he is a suspect that bears looking at. And as for Rowain I haven't read all of his posts. I've barely gotten through whoever I've talked about today. I'm still catching up.

I've posted a fair bit already, and I've pledged to keep doing so. Is this how I play wolf? Getting noticed heavily on day 1? (Yes, I didn't have to post anything from the QT at all, not even that there existed one. And I could have edited it a bit to make me look better, no real need to rush it out at the start of the night because I could have gone to bed, right?)

Wolf play - don't stick your head out. There are people cruising along. At least do the job on the rest of the gang here. Who are lazy villagres and who are scum.

Is this how you play wolf? I don't know. Is the wine in front of you poisoned or the wine in front of me? I think this is a pretty ridiculous statement to make. The fact is circumstances sort of forced you to take on a larger role. Flug was your neighbor. If Flug dies without you saying anything everyone starts asking, "who was his neighbor?", "Why didn't they try to help him?" You were forced into saying something, especially when Flug stopped talking in thread.

And if everyone expects you to not stick your head out, (especially after last game) then wouldn't it actually be smart to try and post more?

And in regards to the idea that you hurried out the QT info after the lynch... WTF? The fact that you did hurry to point out "see I thought he was innocent!" is actually a strike against you. Why not post it an hour before when the lynch was still going? And you HAD to post the QT after you said that you would post it if flug died. What you want townie cred? Oh thank you Molach for quickly delivering on your promise to tell us everything after flug's death!

As for having "posted a fair bit" I read all your posts and there just was not a lot of content. I'm not sure what you want me to do, give you a cookie for blustering around, "being noble and respecting your neighbor", making a halfhearted unsubstantiated attack elsewhere and letting your neighbor die while you sat on content that may have saved his life?

Ridiculous Molach.

[Rowain]

Great Night-results

Thanks for playing zak & Gaspar

I'm surprised that Gaspar was scum. I for one had him as villager so I'm glad he is gone.

I wonder if he was vigged or died killing Zakalwe. I'm leaning towards the latter, he hadn't caught much heat yet. Well played, both of you.

I wonder why you omit the possibility of a SK and what makes you think an incompetent seducer has a revenge-killing ability but I agree that a vig-shot seems highly unlikely.


For the moment I will follow Lewwyn on Molach.

And yes this is a clear follow vote. It only says that for now I will put some trust into Lrewwyns reading. That doesn't say anything about Lewwyns alignement or about the case he made.

[Lewwyn]

About Ichabod:

Gaspar stated several hours before lynch already that he would vote flug if necessary. He certainly would have - and he would have had the explanation for it if it had become necessary. Otherwise, don't you think when flug shows innocent and Gaspar just at the last moment had decided to vote for him instead of Ichabod we had questioned him? I sure would have. But with posting his intent several hours before, he could make sure to put his vote on flug without actually putting it there, discouraging others to vote for Ichabod, as it would be a lost cause anyhow. I think it is a great wolf play to circumvent the normal heat they catch if they save one of theirs with a last-minute-switch.

I see what you're saying, but given the close race, wouldn't Gaspar make good on his promise and make absolutely sure Ichabod didn't hang by voting Flug at the end? After all that's what he's prepared the ground to do, hours earlier. So yeah, the preparation makes sense if Ichabod is scum, but the execution (as it were) doesn't.

You guys realize that Ichabod was voting for Brick? If Ichabod wanted to he could have voted for flug to save himself. He was on at lynchtime and watching. Gaspar's nonvote of Ichabod does make a lick of difference because Ichabod could easily save himself. I don't think Gaspar's attitude toward Ichabod can be read safely as a tell on Ichabod's innocence either way, so I think it should be dropped so we can focus on other things. I think the fact that you keep bringing it up novice is suspicious.

[Serdoa]

I don't like how everyone is clearing tasunke because of gaspar.
Sure tasunke was on him, but its not like it was going to be supported (I mean its tasunke, I didn't even notice he kept on jumping on gqspar.
I'm not saying he's evil, just that he shouldn't be cleared by it.
I didn't see any where people saying that meiz couldn't be a scum buddy either GM.

I would not clear him for whom he attacked, but for getting attacked quite often by Gaspar. And with Tasunke, often a spark can be enough to get him lynched - exactly because of the behaviour of many players, voting him off for no reason, just because they are too lazy to search for the good within all the crazy. And I have the feeling that Gaspar tested the waters in that regard. He brought Tasunkes name up several times throughout his posts. Thats enough for me to not pursue Tasunke right now.

I agree, Tasunke's only stated reason for voting Gaspar was "excessive roleplay". Hardly a convincing case.

I was thinking about Gaspar's refusal to vote Flug at the end, because "it wasn't necessary". Fact of the matter is that Flug could have switched and tied the vote with Ichabod. At first I thought this meant that Gaspar wanted Ichabod to hang, but on second thought, a late switch causing a villager Ichabod to swing would leave Gaspar with some 'splainin to do. So I think maybe Gaspar was just wary of being one of the Flug voters because he feared Flug could have some ability related to his lynchers. Then again, if Ichabod was a wolf, wouldn't Gaspar make absolutely sure he didn't hang by voting Flug at the end?

Gaspar stated several hours before lynch already that he would vote flug if necessary. He certainly would have - and he would have had the explanation for it if it had become necessary. Otherwise, don't you think when flug shows innocent and Gaspar just at the last moment had decided to vote for him instead of Ichabod we had questioned him? I sure would have. But with posting his intent several hours before, he could make sure to put his vote on flug without actually putting it there, discouraging others to vote for Ichabod, as it would be a lost cause anyhow. I think it is a great wolf play to circumvent the normal heat they catch if they save one of theirs with a last-minute-switch.

Serdoa seems to be being standard Serdoa, picking something to run to the ground and subsequently doing so. Though getting started on day 1 rather than waiting for low-hanging fruit to jump on gives him a slight town lean for me.

It really starts to get old. It is not true, no matter how often you guys repeat it. I do look at other places. I just decide not to jump all over the place like a wild dog.

[Bigger]

Jkaen, do you know your alignment, or is that only revealed when your memory returns as well?

[Jkaen]

Is it just me or is 617 the same as 627. Did you accidently post the wrong message Serdoa?

Seems a strange event, I can only guess you prepare your posts elsewhere then copy them into the forum to reply. Which I am not sure is scummy or not, but is a bit odd

[Qgqqqqq]

It would be bastadry (IMO) to not tell a played their role.
serdoa that sounds a lot like your last pode ja vu or have you repeated the post?st, (don't have time to check, but do I have