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TeddyKGB · October 11th, 2013, 02:20

Yuffo, team CareBears, agreed to chat on saturday.
Any topics you want to discuss with India?
Could you join our chat, DMOC? It should start around 6 pm CET.

In other news, India planted city#6 right after we planted city#4. I'm afraid city#7 will follow shortly.
If I understand EP screen correct, India complete settler in city#2 on T57 (sabotage production 836EP on T56 and 0EP on T57). So they could use that settler to plant city#6 SE (in M&M's direction) with wheat, horses and flood plains. I'll ask Asterix about it.
Asterix and SutOxy should be planting their cities soon too.

TeddyKGB

Some interesting msgs from Asterix about India mostly (my additional msg 1st).

Quote:India just planted city#6. I'm guessing its location East or SouthEast from their holy city.
Can you confirm or deny?

Quote:Hello TeddyKGB of Eggheads,

Thank you very much for being so open with me. Frankly, I have no idea how to deal with Yuufo, but I do agree that taking coordinated actions would be to our advantage and will make our position stronger, so I am all for it.

Yes, we currently have NAPs with them expiring T80. I completely agree with you that early war - even 2 vs. 1 is far from ideal. But I understand that what you are suggesting is not giving Yuufo the luxury to expanding in peace the way he does, making him realize that he either has to reach some land settling deal with us - or have to invest in some army instead of this enless settlers - seem like an excellent idea. BTW, I did not do any demohacking - and Yuufo suggested to me he has axes already - but based on his graphs I think his army is just a couple of warriors. Do you have exact data on population of his cities?

Wrt to Yuufo's new city, I cannot login into the game now, but I wanted to send you this earlier screenshot anyway. It shows a settler almost on my doorstep - my city you see to the East was settled within my capitol's cultural boundaries - so the city he settled this turn would be definitely to the East but kinda in the middle - likely about the height of my capitol. I think that Yuufo whipped another settler - or if not would do it soon .

BTW, the city he settled this turn will clearly encroach on my natural sphere of interest - and what is worst, I have a settler on the way to settle almost exactly in the same area, which will probably be not possible now. So far, in spite of Yuufo's action, I settled on his side only in my capitol's culture. Should I settle aggressively towards him now? Or is there still a chance for amicable solution and somehow convincing him to cooperation? I have no idea what to do with the settler and will have to decide within a turn, most likely. BTW, do you think he is likely to start a war over me settling aggresively towards him? I hate what he is doing, but am still not inclined to take military action, at least not just after our NAP would expire. BTW, Yuufo seems very nice as a person, but difficult to reason with in-game, he even denied he moved toward us on T1, although seems obvious from his capitol placement...

Wrt to Orgy Nized, again, I did not do any demo hacking, but I was thinking for a while LP would go for an Oracle, seems logical consequence of him researching religious techs anyway and being only IND civ. Your calculation behind him researching Writing now sounds very reasonable. Unfortunately, I would not be able to check if he got writing, because the game chat is showing me already I can offer him OB since I have Writing.

Best Wishes,

Asterix

Quote:More bad news. I logged in into the game and Yuufo has not settled yet his city near me - that would be his city #7 Or perhaps even # 8

My reply.

Quote:HI,

Quick reply. I'll add some more short after.

Thank you so much for new info. I'll sort it out, post in our team thread and will reply in full shortly.
I'm really glad both our teams are so open with each other. We are both have very tough continent, in my opinion. Other continent seems much softer in general, based on C&D.There are AGG Rome and possible early wars, but still other continent teams don't epand well, in my humble opinion.

I'm amazed how good India continue their expansion. I had no expirience in MP before PB14 beside reading reports on RB forum.
I didn't know anything about Yuffo, so I was thinking: 'some mediocre french guy, no problem'. I'm afraid I was very wrong.
I agree with you, he could be a bigger threat than LP long term.

India played starting turns close to perfect and even grab religion on the way.
In diplo e-mails I did mention border agreement to them twice, but they just ignore that part of my message.
I don't blame them. After all, IMP trait is early trait. Like CRE pretty much.

They could have some problems with research timing now (oh, I rly hope they do). After founded so many cities and go for religion, I just hope they really hurt by expences. Their cities stays pretty small in size, to my knowledge, and I'm doubt they researched Pottery yet. Damn, I rly need to refresh my C&D on them.
Another semi bright side, they did choping heavy in main land (oh, who didn't? team Pony maybe?), so their total production could be slower now. Still, new cities, religion spread and FastWorkers could prove I'm wrong here.

I assume, India could have 1-2 Axe's right now. And with their production rate and two source of copper, they could have more in the short period of turns.
Still, I'm almost 100% sure they don't have AH yet. Horses is close to their holy city, though. And there is a settler of India on your screenshot, just no tech for them yet.

This e-mail isn't full reply to yours, but I'm a bit tired now. I'll add some later, most likely.

If you agree to chat sometimes, I'm totally for it. Could be much easier to discuss some topics.
I'm in Russia, so my time zone is CET+2:00 (Moscow time). But I'm pretty available at any time, day or night.
My ICQ# <***>
My other gmail: <***>
Regards,
TeddyKGB, team EggHeads

DMOC

(October 11th, 2013, 02:20)TeddyKGB Wrote: Yuffo, team CareBears, agreed to chat on saturday.
Any topics you want to discuss with India?
Could you join our chat, DMOC? It should start around 6 pm CET.

In other news, India planted city#6 right after we planted city#4. I'm afraid city#7 will follow shortly.
If I understand EP screen correct, India complete settler in city#2 on T57 (sabotage production 836EP on T56 and 0EP on T57). So they could use that settler to plant city#6 SE (in M&M's direction) with wheat, horses and flood plains. I'll ask Asterix about it.
Asterix and SutOxy should be planting their cities soon too.

6PM CET corresponds to 11AM in EST (same day), and there's a high chance I'll be driving at that time. I'll log into my email account if possible, but I'm not that optimistic.

Will write up some more thoughts soon...I'm worried about Care Bears and their fast expansion right now ...

DMOC

Some additional comments on this game:

(October 10th, 2013, 19:46)TeddyKGB Wrote:
(October 10th, 2013, 09:29)DMOC Wrote: Okay, going along according to plan. Some comments:

1. Good thing we're getting that chariot done next turn. I'm getting paranoid about barbarians, but one single chariot is literally enough to protect our whole empire from barbarians for the next 5-10 turns. We'll definitely want at least three of these soon, though. And in addition, if we feel like we can substantially weaken one of our neighbors (i.e. the two "front runners" to win the game right now!), we might consider a quick 4-chariot rush to raze a city. It might not be worth it, though.

2. Soon we're going to have 1 warrior in each of our three cities, plus two up north, and two down south/west. I think the 3 that are in our three cities now should just stay there and act as military garrisons. The two warriors up north should probably stay there as well, especially since we'll need to move one of those warriors east towards our fifth city. The warrior out west should continue heading there to meet Orgynized, while the other one near Stanford can explore the south and possibly fog-bust. Alternatively, we can send him east near the silver (which is probably what I'd do) and then explore the rest of the land between us and India.

3. Our fourth city, UC Berkeley will be founded shortly. What do we want to build there? Granary? And which tiles to work first? Since we've already got roads near the corn, we should try and get the corn improved as soon as borders pop.

4. We're nearing the end of our plan, so what do we do once we get Writing? Carnegie Mellon and Stanford need Libraries in them ASAP, which is made easier now by the fact that both cities already have granaries. MIT needs to grow to size 4 (it's been waiting forever) and then it can be a nice chariot - worker pump.

5. Cottages!!! We'll be making a good number of them in the Carnegie Mellon - Stanford area within the next dozen turns, hopefully.

6. What's the tech path after Writing? We want the two 'major' classical era techs soon, Mathematics and Monarchy. Which one do we aim for first? My inclination is for Monarchy, but it's not too strong...

7. Scout move for next turn? I can see us going either 3-3 or 9 and then reevaluating from there.

8. Warrior moves -- why don't we move our northern warrior next to the wheat (on the forest, and then pull the southern one back in our borders? We know if our settler will be safe after the northern warrior moves next to the wheat.

1. Chariot done. Now where we should put it? I suggest we keep it on our road network, close to center for defence all directions from barbs. Our warriors could form spawnbust/fogbust net for early alarm.
1st war - keep moving to contact LP
2nd war - stays on the sign "Stay Here!" to cover Stanford from the west and MIT from southwest. Or it could be moved 1 more tile west to do the same. I don't like to move him in Silver direction right now.
3rd war - move few tiles west, closer to Rice, to protect MIT from northwest and UC from west directions. There is enough forests in that area for additional cover.
4th war - move 9 this turn out of borders to protect UC from east. In case barb appear on certain tile next turn, he could go 7 inside UC's border onto plain forest (I'm thinking to put worker here this turn to chop into granary).
5th war - could move into Copper direction to fogbust city#5 location.
6th and 7th wars - we could produce them next turn, but we can delay as well and switch CM and Stanford to Chariots. It'll allow us to keep unit costs a bit. We will need warrior in CM on T60 for happieness, tho. And warrior from Stanford could explore silver site.
I dont think some aggresive military actions would be successful vs India or LP. India connected copper long time ago (they probably connected 2nd source by now) and LP also has Copper very close to capital, as you can see on M&M's screenshot. Though, our NAP with CareBears expired on T75 so it leave military option open, in case India aggressively expand in our direction.

2. See above. Again, I don't like current warrior go explore silver site, but we can use the one from Stanford queue to go that way on T59, if we are ok with raising costs.

3. I suggest UC Berkeley starts granary while working 2/1 tile. One worker should chop into it, so granary will be complete while UC have 10/22 food stored (almost perfect). We need to improve 3 resource tiles fast, so I suggest 2 workers at least at UC (we are low on workers again, btw).
T63 - borders expand, two workers start farming Corn
T65 - Corn done, workers continue to Horses and Wheat.
After granary done, it could be workboat(explore and contact north teams)/military unit/?library?(farm 1st GS) next in queue.
Sadly, if both northern workers start improving UC now, it will delay 6th worker and could delay settler from CM.
Need some sims.
Could you sim as well in the next 10-15 hours?

4. Once we get writing(T61), we should put slider to 0% and accumulate gold untill 1-2 libraries done.
Fastest I can get library in CM is T64, after settler done on T63 (didn't sim it, just calculate on paper, could be wrong). Its could be not optimal, cause MIT didn't get pigs to grow in that case.
I'm not sure we should rush library in Stanford, but we'll see.
And I'd prefer granary in MIT before size4. We should improve some tile in MIT BFC as well (GHmine/Farm/overlapped Cottage), so we are short on workers again.

5. 1st cottage will be done on T59 and start growing right away. 2nd could be done on T60, also start growing same turn.
We have 3 workers in the area, but we also have another tasks for them: GHmine(MIT/Stanford), PHmine(CM), Roads to Copper, Chop into worker(?MIT?), Chop into settler/library(CM).

6. Tech path after Writing. I have not decide which path I like most, yet. I can see 3 main options: Monarchy, Math and Sailing. Some minor options could be Masonry, Aesthetics, ...
We have few more turns to argue and decide. After writing done, we'll put slider to 0% for several turns.
Domestics more important at the moment.

7. Scout move. 9-? seems slightly better to me, cause I'd like to explore northern coast. But I'm ok either way. Still need to ask SutOxy for passage if we go northeast.

8. Done.

(1) I agree with you in that we need to keep our chariot near the center of our empire. The road network will help it get to any spot as needed. Also, with regards to warriors, I didn't actually take unit costs into consideration. If that's the case, then yes, definitely delay the warriors being built until we actually need them to avoid unhappiness. Chariots are a good alternative (no barracks needed right now) to divert hammers on for a few turns. Unfortunately, we don't have Writing for now so we can't put them into the more useful Libraries.
(2) See earlier comment. By the way, I agree with your general plan for warriors, e.g. the western one should try to meet LP, etc.
(3) Good plan on the workers from UC Berkeley. I definitely do agree that we need workers up there, but in my opinion if we don't want to delay the next settler from CM, we can just have 2 workers farm the corn, then have one of those workers pasture the horses and one go to the capital.
(4) A fast library is important for us -- we just need one in either Stanford or Carnegie Mellon, and in whatever city gets it we need the 2 Great Scientist citizens immediately. See more comments below on this.
(5) If we've got 3 workers out there, we should probably put them on a mix of cottaging, mining, chopping, and roading.
(6) Okay, good call about Writing, we should definitely stick with 0% for now. I disagree with Masonry and Aesthetics for now; we have no use for them, but I am considering Sailing, if only because we'll want to establish coastal trade routes soon, and it seems like we might be able to do so in fewer than 20 turns. But regardless, Mathematics and Monarchy are so important that we need them early.
(7) It seems like SutOxy are okay with us going through their borders, so let's send our scout in their territory.
(8) N/A

Other stuff:

Our current deals are:

-T100 NAP with Eagles&Condors (SutOxy)
-T90 NAP with Margarita/Asterix
-T75 NAP with Care Bears

Is that right? If so, I agree with Asterix that we should not extend our NAP with Care Bears. Let's keep them guessing. Their costs have to be high right now. Are we even sure all their cities are connected via roads?

General Plan:

(1) What do we do about the four cities? My current vague idea (yours will be better) is that:
- Carnegie Mellon will work on a settler at size 4 and then a library after that. (No whip, but possibly have chops)? Settler -> Library -> ??
- MIT will hopefully be able to grow to size 4 with a granary, then do something like Worker -> Chariot -> Worker -> Chariot?
- Stanford finishes a granary and starts on a library? Granary -> Library -> ??.
- UC Berkeley will work on a granary, followed by a work boat, since establishing contact with teams is essential for these kind of diplomacy games. Then possibly workers or settlers? I.e. Granary -> Work Boat -> Worker/Settler.

One thing that might "complicate" matters is if we need to finish up chariots to avoid wasting some hammers. Also, I'm not sure at the moment which of Stanford or CM should work the 2 scientists. UC Berkeley is too far behind right those two cities to be a candidate.

(2) City location: Where is city #5 (name: Cornell) going to be located? I think the city marked down as "Block India Here!" is too far right now for a fifth city, but we could put one in that general direction, sharing the corn and some of the tiles near the copper. The other alternatives are a city also on the northern coast (sharing corn but getting fish), settling near the silver, or settling west of MIT to get the sheep. I would prefer either (1) the city north with the fish, or (2) a city near the copper location, building northeast to establish a border with India.

(3) Worker actions! I haven't seen the game in a while, but if I recall correctly, we have at least five workers, right? Ideally, we can split them up as follows:
-2 workers down south near Stanford/CM to cottage
-2 workers up north at UC Berkeley to improve it fast.
-1 worker near the MIT/CM area to either chop, mine, or road.

So what worker will road to the fifth city site?

(4) If I recall correctly, here are the city counts:

(6) Vicky/India: Turns 28, 37, 42, 50, 58
(4) Us: Turn 33, 50, 58
(3) Pacal/NA: Turn 36, 43
(3) Isabella/Inca: Turn 33, 46
(3) M&M (Willem): Turn 38, 52
(3) GG (Ragnar): Turn 38, 54
(3) Mansa/Zulu: Turn 38, 53
(3) Darius/England: Turn 39, 55
(3) Orgy (HC/Dutch): Turn 42, 56
(2) Pony (Nap/Sumeria): Turn 49

crazyeye

Care Bears are expanding too fast for my liking. Both Orgynized and Care Bears seem to be in a strong position this game, so we'll have to play carefully.

Let me know what you think. I'm away from my Civ computer, but I can log into the game briefly tomorrow. Don't worry, after this semester ends, I'll have a substantial increase in free time. crazyeye

Also, I'm really happy you've managed the workers well so far. Keep it up! smile

TeddyKGB · October 11th, 2013, 21:08

T58.

Thanks for your post, DMOC. I hope to reply in full shortly.

LP's treasure is empty, so he turn slider to 0% this turn.
After some thoughts, I decide to go for worker in MIT. I did screwed our micro a bit on T54 when decide to put 1 turn production into granary instead of worker in MIT, but oh well.
Worker#6 will be complete on T62 in MIT. On T62 MIT will stole Pigs from CM and finish Granary in 1 turn with almost perfect food stored.

CM will grow to size6 into unhappiness, start settler and 3pop whip it. Settler could be complete on T64 without any chops and small overflow.
City#5 could be founded on T65 east of CM with copper, double flood plains and a peak in the first ring (to fogbust east direction even more). Instant trade route.
Copper will be connected on T67.
I decide to go war>war in CM instead chariot. 1st warrior is finished (and raise our costs), but 2nd one will tranform to Spear later.

TeddyKGB · October 11th, 2013, 21:37

T59. Didn't finish it yet.
Again, 1 point short from top on scoreboard. Could be #1 on start of next turn, but if India or LP finish Oracle we won't be on top long.
We'll contact LP next turn.
1st cottage is done.

TeddyKGB · October 12th, 2013, 09:17

T59 finished.

India planted city#7.
I'm afraid their city#6 was planted on 'Block India' sign or very close to it (you can see 'liberate' beside city name on trade screen).
If its true, I'm considering this plant very aggressive (5 tiles from our capital and 10 tiles from India's). We should not allow that city to exist in India hands.
In my opinion, thats enough casus belli to breaking NAP if we will be ready to take that city before T75. What you think?

Set up workers and cities to get next settler on T64. Maybe you like to change it and set up for fast chariots instead?
Maybe I should change CM's production from warrior to chariot? We'll need that spear(warrior) if all goes according to peacefull plan, but if we want to early war with India its better be chariot.

Tech: Math->Construction is an option too.

I did mention to CareBears our city#4 have Horses in 2nd ring. Maybe they decide its our only Horses resource and delay Spears till ~T70.
Asterix said that Yuufo mention they has 2 Axes already. Need C&D.

I'll ask Yuufo about city#6 location, but maybe we had to scout ourself.

LP back on 100% slider.

TeddyKGB

Chat with Yuufo, team CareBears. Some interesting info inside, I'll do cliffnotes soon.
Long nonformated chat under spoiler.

Screenshot from India, stone location and land between our capitals.

2 kind of news here: bad news and more bad news.
I'll cliff soon.
I'm thinking about go back in game and change CM to chariot. And I'm not sure we should stick to the NAP with India till T75.
City 'Cheers' was planted 6 tiles from our capital any 9 tiles from theirs. We have to consider some military action soon and breaking NAP if necessary.

Yuufo is a nice guy and competent player, obv. I'm really impressed how India expand, grab religion and on the flip from Oracle right now.

DMOC

Will post some thoughts soon.
Yes, I'm not happy with Care Bears' expansion right now, but realize that if we declare war it will ruin our ability to stay competitive in the long-run. Any sort of coordination will require MM/Asterisk's combination.

Let's stick with our expansion mode right now. The most important thing is to get MM/Asterik on our side. Perhaps a dual no NAP, no open borders?

edit: I'll draft a message to MM/Asterk tonight.

TeddyKGB · October 12th, 2013, 12:27

Would you agree to change CM production to chariot right now?

Its not mean we will go to war with CareBears, but its more needed unit right now than Spear, imo.
Spear should protect us from LP later, if we plant aggressive toward him and take the Rice. LP could easy build chariots. And Yuufo stack with copper units.

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