RB Pitboss #1 SPOILER - Hatshepsut / India

[novice]

Still working on Imhotep.

I think it has a 5-15% chance of turning into someone useful, but I'm 99% sure I'm the only one who's trying.

That's quite possible. To be honest, I think you need to compose shorter messages for Imhotep to read them.

[regoarrarr]

That's quite possible. To be honest, I think you need to compose shorter messages for Imhotep to read them.

Yeah I may try that at some point. It's all about trying to figure out what might entertain / amuse / interest him.

[regoarrarr]

Email from dsp

Uh, nevermind what I said, I was looking at the score chart, not power. My power has nosedived and broker/plako is now ahead of me. I am close to Kodii but a bit below him in the chart I think. Below us is shady and then Elkad.

And also

Military tradition is done. I set research to Scientific Method, due in 5 (assuming I can be funded at around 215 gold per turn).

[regoarrarr]

Email sent out

Hey guys,

A few things:

So Sci Meth due in 5 makes it T176. I managed to swap to a few commerce tiles and dropped Steam Power from 3 to 2, so it is due on T173. Exploit researched Astronomy this turn (T171), and they have Chemistry, so Galleons and Frigates and Privateers are all in play, so watch out. Also, anybody that needs Astronomy that doesn't have it, please request it from me. Next techs after that are Railroads for me and Biology for Daniel, though I'd really like Constitution, both for my UB as well as opening up Corporation / Assembly Line.

I am making about 467bpt and need about 225 gpt to sustain max research.

Also a reminder that every Hindu city you all convert means 2 (soon to be 3) gold for Sunrise, which helps us all research faster. Also, even if you're not spiritual, Hindu Temples @ 80 hammers have a 40 turn return on investment (since they get 2 hammers from the AP), not to mention the culture and happy, so they can be a decent build to slot in.

And a reminder mostly to myself, Exploit's and my peace treaty ends on T180.

Lastly, what are the thoughts on the Elkad war? Is it something that we think can be prosecuted much further? If not, what about shady holds the defensive line (probably Elkad can't retake any of his losses, at this point) and Daniel - you send troops to help Kodii? We can't afford to have him fold under dual front war with Munro and Broker. I don't know exactly what the shape of the map looks like down there, but it was just a thought. If we can eliminate Elkad, that is probably better, but if it's a stalemate, I think at least Daniel's units might be better served helping Kodii

Thoughts?

[regoarrarr]

Emails going around

Kodii

The bright side of my war is that I no longer have a five-city front, but that's just because I lost three cities. I'm holding out, but getting some assistance from Daniel would be nice, especially since Munro's core is essentially undefended.

dsp

Munro's core is not entirely undefended. I've got a stack of about 10+ Rifles and 4 Cannons by one of his cities (the one east of Wolf 359), and he has decent defense there. At least it's troops he can't send against you though.

Daniel

shadyforce

I don't think we can attack effectively against Elkad just now. It has hit stalemate. I think the next window of opportunity is Machine Guns should we choose to go that route. Daniel, what do you think? I have a bunch of Rifles arriving in The Courthouse (formerly Kerkouane) but I have exhausted my supply of Cannon.

As long as Daniel keeps control of the channel, I don't think he'll face any counter-attack threat (?) and yes I'm confident I can keep The Courthouse against a counter-attack that tbh is probably not coming.

Economically, I'm an embarrasment to financial civs. I should have picked Agg/Char for the way I've played the game so far, hehe. My gpt is languishing around 120 at the moment. I'll try and improve that. But at least I'm trying to spread Hinduism!

Are we sure Biology is the way to go? As opposed to say Physics->Electricity->Flight?

Dan, I assume you're keeping that Great Engineer for Mining Inc? I wonder how much the corporations will come into play in this game. I'd say keeping Mining and Sid's Sushi from enemy hands could give us another advantage. But I don't really have a feel for how overpowered they are. Does anyone have experience with them in a multi-player situation?

[regoarrarr]

Okay brief update on things. Still building up military. I'm about 100K above #2 in soldiers, and I don't even believe that exploit is #2. Haven't really seen him drafting at all, although he is in Nationhood and is no longer in a GA.

He is looking to plant at least 2 cities on the west of his island city. I plan on capturing that city amphibiously in 5 turns when our peace deal ends.

Railroad due in 11 turns.

Trying to figure out the best balance between continuing to focus on military while also slotting in much needed infrastructure.

For example, Green Township, which is the site of my HE, is also one of my best commerce cities, due to dyes and rivers and sheer size. It makes like 40 base commerce. So I want to slot in a university. But that means 7 turns of no military. I decided to go for it, and there are 2 turns left on it.

My plan had been to go back to rifles then, but now I want to put a levee in there. It's 5t and 180 hammers, but returns 8 hpt (10hpt with forge and 20hpt when building military). Seems like a no brainer but then that's another 5 turns of no military. I'm doing it but I am trying to keep several other cities on military.

I guess my thought is that while there is a bit of a lull (and I am able to continue to have a 100K lead on #2 in soldier count), I might as well do it now, since it's got to get done at some point.

Shadyforce is moving into position to take the barb city on our border, and I have sent a galley with a rifle and cannon to the barb city on the island, which just this turn grew to size 2.

Coal situation - I have 2 coals (with a 3rd on the barb island), Exploit has 2, and a 3rd right on our border, shady has 2. (I'm doing this from memory so it may be off). Broker, the lins, Munro, Elkad and Sunrise have none. Imhotep has one and I think dsplaisted has one.

[regoarrarr]

An interesting email from Exploit

Ok, I am willing to consider your NAP proposal. To be clear, I have city visibility on all of your cities and I've been watching your troop movements. I am well aware of all the rifles, cannons and such you are stocking up near Evandale. Just as you I am sure are well aware that with my population and happiness that I can draft over 60 riflemen without even causing one of my cities to have an angry citizen. It would take you 5 turns to move your main stack of doom into position to attack my nearest city by which time there would be an additional 25 rifles not to mention the existing units.

The net effect of our current situation is that if I move into your territory then you kill my stack and if you move into my territory then I kill your stack. You can also see that Wild Wonders is about to have 3 more defenders so even an amphibious attack on that city would be futile. Neither of us is going to get ahead under this current stalemate. I feel my position is slightly superior since you are paying for more units that are rapidly becoming obsolete even though you have gained nothing from them while the bulk of my defense is productively working tiles until drafted.

Here is my offer:

1) NAP until Turn 215 which should give you enough time to wage a war against one of your enemies with those units before they become obsolete

2) I will not colonize that lovely vacant land north of you. So many trees going uncut!

3) You give me Steam Power. I cannot trade the tech and our techer will finish it in ~10 more turns anyway so this is really just giving me 50% extra worker productivity for a few turns. (I still have a lot of trees to cut).

Interested?

[regoarrarr]

Very interesting chat with Exploit

(8:46:15 PM) Exploit: are you available to chat?
(8:48:53 PM) Exploit: this is Exploit
(8:49:21 PM) me: right
(8:50:54 PM) me: so what are you going to do with your army if we sign a NAP?
(8:54:33 PM) Exploit: My army isn't costing me so much that I necessarily have to do anything with it.
(8:54:57 PM) Exploit: What is your specific concern?
(8:56:09 PM) me: i don't know
(8:56:14 PM) me: here are a few thoughts i've had
(8:56:51 PM) me: i wouldn't want you using your head start on getting steam power to say, start researching a tech that it unlocks
(8:57:12 PM) me: that's more of a concern to me then you getting 10t of faster workers
(8:57:32 PM) me: though honestly i'd be more interested in talking about future tech / other cooperation
(8:58:54 PM) Exploit: I do not like static alliances so at some point in the game I will be looking to shake up the alliance structure.but not right away.
(8:59:25 PM) me: yeah to me, coming from a Diploamcy backgroudn where the alliances tend to be more fluid, the static alliances in this game have been frustrating
(8:59:33 PM) me: i think part of that is due to the ful ltech trading being on
(8:59:50 PM) Exploit: I play the game like Survivor. Determine who I want to take to the next era with the eventual goal of winning myself.
(8:59:58 PM) me: right
(9:00:02 PM) me: i think that's a good model
(9:00:40 PM) Exploit: yes, I think we play a similar style of game as does Shady.
(9:01:17 PM) me: so, did i make the cut as wanting to go in the next era with you?
(9:02:09 PM) Exploit: I don't see that I have a choice since it would be too costly for me to take you out of the game at the moment.
(9:02:37 PM) Exploit: I generally prey on the weak to maximize my growth while minimizing my losses.
(9:03:27 PM) Exploit: I also tend to make myself self-sufficient and well defended so I am not dependent upon alliances for survival.
(9:03:50 PM) me: kind of hard in a game like this
(9:06:31 PM) Exploit: It's difficult but not impossible. Most people always want something from you so its a matter of being open to negotiations. At the moment you would like to be able to redeploy your troops to make better use of them. I would speculate that you intend to take out Imhotep so now it's just negotiation.
(9:07:19 PM) me: well, that would seem to be the first thing that came to mind but not necessarily the best move
(9:07:35 PM) me: also, when did i propose a nap - has it been awhile? I'm not unopposed just don't remember sending it
(9:09:05 PM) Exploit: well you keep talking about us working together and getting peace passed through the AP. I'm not certain if you formally mentioned a NAP but that is the gist of what I understood you to be talking about.
(9:09:13 PM) me: okay
(9:09:26 PM) me: as for the AP, i actually was expecting you to defy
(9:09:37 PM) me: but you're right, i am not opposed to peace
(9:09:43 PM) me: im just a peaceful ol guy
(9:10:05 PM) Exploit: lol! So am I of course.
(9:10:10 PM) me: of course, of coures
(9:10:47 PM) me: so speaking of preying on the weak that you mentioned, another concern i'd have is that your nap with sunrise runs out on t190, and i would hate to send my army away from our mutual border only to find sunrise asking for me to help him hold off an incan army
(9:13:03 PM) Exploit: I am currently in negotiations with Sunrise about our future. So far he has not offered me anything that would stop me from crushing him but I suspect he will come back with a significantly better offer. I am a peaceful person after all.
(9:13:28 PM) me: lol
(9:14:57 PM) Exploit: I am not willing to trade away my negotiating position with Sunrise as part of an agreement with you however. The price for peace with Sunrise will be substantially higher.
(9:15:32 PM) me: i understand
(9:16:16 PM) me: from my perspective, my ties with sunrise run long and deep. it would be tough for me to throw those away, or agree to something that is going to be an indirect cause of him being destroyed
(9:16:37 PM) me: having said that, as you said, since both you and sunrise seem like wanting peace, i bet you can work something out
(9:19:12 PM) Exploit: I think something can be worked out with Sunrise. If you want to keep your troops in your west to keep Sunrise secure that is your concern not mine. My offer is for a NAP with you.
(9:19:31 PM) me: right
(9:19:33 PM) me: i understand
(9:19:50 PM) me: but a NAP with you doesn't do as much for me if i have to continue to keep my troops where they are
(9:22:32 PM) Exploit: Agreed. I would therefore think that given your "long and deep ties" with Sunrise that you could explain to him the reality of his situation and the opportunity cost to you inherent in defending his border.
(9:27:05 PM) me: oh i think he is aware of the realities of his situation - he's way more experience in MP than either you or I
(9:27:13 PM) me: though not in exactly these types of games, of course
(9:29:04 PM) Exploit: I could put together a proposal that would cover a NAP with both Sunrise and yourself. I can even imagine a scenario that would involve tech trades amongst the three of us.
(9:29:15 PM) me: i could see that
(9:32:00 PM) Exploit: Hypothetically, a NAP between the three of us, with Sunrise funding both you and I. I could give both Sunrise and yourself all the tech that I research in exchange for all the tech you research. We could still gift the tech we researched ourselves to our respective alliances.
(9:32:33 PM) me: hmm
(9:32:50 PM) me: i could see that fracturing the alliances
(9:32:56 PM) me: (not that that would necesarily be a bad thing)
(9:33:12 PM) Exploit: you say that like it's a bad thing
(9:33:16 PM) Exploit: lol
(9:35:02 PM) Exploit: that deal would be in the best interest of all three of us. Getting us to the next era stronger than our competitors.
(9:35:13 PM) Dan Miller: somehow i'm talking to both exploit and krill in the same window (for me)
(9:35:47 PM) Exploit: grr. that is why my window keeps closing. Can you ask Krill to please log out for me.
(9:36:47 PM) me: okay i think krill is logged on to his personal account
(9:36:56 PM) me: but somehow i have that mapped to the same IM window as you
(9:36:47 PM) me: okay i think krill is logged on to his personal account
(9:36:56 PM) me: but somehow i have that mapped to the same IM window as you
(9:37:59 PM) Exploit: Someone else was logged into this account earlier but seems to be gone now.
(9:38:20 PM) me: yeah i may have fixed it on mye nd
(9:38:28 PM) Exploit: cool.
(9:38:40 PM) me: okay so hypothetically speaking on tech
(9:38:44 PM) me: you can see what i am researching righ?
(9:38:59 PM) Exploit: yes railroad 11 turns as I recall
(9:39:06 PM) me: right
(9:40:00 PM) me: so woudln't you think that the techs that you might research would also be the ones that say, dsplaisted or kodii or shady might be researching?
(9:42:18 PM) me: similarly i'd expect broker or whoever would be researching RR after steam power
(9:42:43 PM) Exploit: DSP and you seem to be the only ones truly researching for your alliance. DSP is researching Sci Method currently. I will have Corporation done before you complete railroad.hich leades to assembly line and allows you to found Mining Inc which I think you are saving that GE for.
(9:43:18 PM) me: do you already have constitution?
(9:43:21 PM) me: hadn't seen that
(9:44:13 PM) Exploit: Our respective alliances would have to research the techs that we trade for themselves this deal would give only us an edge over our allies and our enemies.
(9:44:20 PM) me: right
(9:44:26 PM) me: i just have a hard time seeing them accepting that
(9:44:44 PM) me: although on the surface it of course seems good for youa nd i
(9:44:45 PM) Exploit: Constitution is complete next turn.
(9:44:48 PM) me: ah
(9:45:06 PM) Exploit: it's also good for Sunrise.
(9:45:14 PM) me: right
(9:45:25 PM) me: but not so much for the other 8 folks
(9:45:54 PM) me: as for mining inc it's a possibility though mining inc is a bit nerfed on this map with no gold or silver
(9:45:55 PM) Exploit: Not everyone is going to make the cut to the next era, which is how the game should be.
(9:46:57 PM) Exploit: Actually that nerf is true. Yuck, that simple variation certainly messes up a lot of things. My forges arent making me as happy as they should be either.
(9:47:05 PM) me: right
(9:47:32 PM) me: even sid's isn't that great - instead of 1/2 food per resource, it's only 1/4 on this huge map
(9:48:02 PM) me: i bet you only have 16 max seafood?
(9:48:52 PM) me: dunno i haven't counted all yours
(9:49:51 PM) Exploit: I haven't counted all of my seafood since I wasn't planning on going for corps this game.
(9:50:01 PM) me: yeah you have a pretty good empire for SP
(9:51:38 PM) Exploit: Bottom line is that peace with Sunrise is going to cost in excess of 200 gpt or else I am headed for his shrines but I am willing to negotiate something (like tech or possibly religion spread) in return.
(9:52:39 PM) Exploit: I cannot allow Sunrise to keep funding your research at ~240 gpt without something comparable in return.
(9:55:59 PM) me: what do you mean by religion spread?
(9:56:05 PM) me: taoism by him?
(9:56:11 PM) me: or hinduism / judaism to you?
(9:58:17 PM) Exploit: He has two religions, I could spread them to all of my cities (~30) which with markets, grocers,and wall street in his shrine cities comes to an extra 2 or 3 gpt per city. He should earn an extras 150 gpt if I spread his religions to all of my cities.
(9:59:07 PM) me: so the thought would be that you do that in exchange for a portion / all of the gold produced?
(10:00:16 PM) Exploit: Yes so he pays say 200 gpt but I spread his religions to my cities as fast as possible which would mean he would earn 150 gpt back meaning the ne

Apologies for any Krill->Exploit search and replaces - it got real weird there for awhile as somehow I had mapped both Krill and Exploit to my same IM buddy and I was having 2 totally separate conversations with the 2 of them in the same window for me.

Anyway it looks like things might be shaking up here before too long...

[regoarrarr]

Things heating up and Exploit has decided that he feels he is in a super position of strength (and maybe he is!) as he has decided to change the arrangement

me: hi exploit as opposed to krill
Sent at 10:31 AM on Tuesday
me: hi
Exploit: hi
me: got some time?
and this is exploit, right?
Exploit: it is and I have some time
me: cool
i see you've been drafting lately!
Sent at 4:19 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: Yes, based upon yesterday's conversation I didn't feel that you were understanding my position clearly so I decided that I had to strengthen my negotiating position.
me: lol
so what is your position? my understanding is that you were looking for a nap with me so you could smack sunrise (or someone) around?
Sent at 4:22 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: My position is that I will shortly have the power to take both you and Sunrise out even if you work together and there is nothing that the two of you can do to stop me. It will be costly in terms of population a lost soldiers but that is a price that I am willing to pay unless you make me a very strong offer.
Sent at 4:24 PM on Tuesday
me: okay
do you think that's a winning position?
if you take sunrise and myself out, it seems like the other players would band together to try and take you out
do you think you would have enough to hold off everyone?
(that's a serious question - you very well might)
Sent at 4:26 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: My allies are strongly advocating for me to take the two of you out and we have agreed upon the necessary bribes that will keep them loyal. I will not end up with all of both your territories but neither of you would make it to the next era.
me: gotcha
makes sense
Sent at 4:28 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: Of course since I have been forced to demonstrate my willingness to draft my entire population that means the price for peace has gone up and will continue to rise with each turn of drafting.
me: are you sure this isn't krill? :-P
Exploit: lol! No it's just me, your peace seeking neighbor.
Sent at 4:33 PM on Tuesday
me: hold on someone at my desk
Sent at 4:34 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: just let me know when you are back
Sent at 4:39 PM on Tuesday
me: ok back
Exploit: I'm still here
me: so yesterday we were exploring some sort of relationship with you me and sunrise
where he funds both of our research to some degree
Sent at 4:44 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: yes that was the carrot which I hoped would save me having to prove that I wasn't bluffing. Now that I have already drafted 10 population, my populace is much more inclined towards the stick approach.
me: were you expecting me to just give you a yes/no on the spot yesterday?
Sent at 4:47 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: It's a fast paced game with every 18 hours being 1 more turn towards our peace treaty being over. I do not have the luxury for long negotiations.
me: sure
Sent at 4:50 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: Here is the deal that I am willing to make until my next draft. You give me the land back which you took from me which includes the cities of Evendale, Sharonville, North Bend and Lockland. You also give me the Great Engineer that you have siting in Arlington and Steam Power and Railroad when you finish it. I will give you peace until Turn 215, I will not colonize your northern border and I will make a good faith effort to negotiate a peace deal with Sunrise.
Sent at 4:54 PM on Tuesday
me: hold on someone called me grr
Exploit: The price for peace will rise next turn.
Sent at 4:56 PM on Tuesday
me: so on an awfully coincidental note, i noticed that imhotep decided to start drafting this turn
Exploit: Yes, that was um... a coincidence!
me: lol
Exploit: I can't help but notice that Arlington is poorly defended. A maceman, 2 catapults and a riflemean scurrying over to defend.
me: yup
Exploit: I believe my offer is generous given the circumstances.
me: seems like an awfully different tone from yesterday, given the fact that only 1 turn has passed
Exploit: 1 turn but 2 drafts.
Sent at 5:04 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: You can see from civstts that I have spent a lot of time loggedi nto the game over the last 24 hours and negotiating with my allies. I have very strong support to take you out. Believe it or not some of my allies, don't feel as kindly towards you as I do.
me: who wouldn't love a lovable soul such as myself?
Sent at 5:06 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: I really don't understand their concerns. I believe that you are a reasonable person and I am certain that once you demonstrate that reasonableness by accepting my offer that they will be less inclined to so violently oppose you.
Sent at 5:08 PM on Tuesday
me: I feel I must decline your offer. Your tone has left me with the impression that you are not interested in compromise or negotiation of peace terms, which is too bad because I had come up with some interesting thoughts / ideas based on our conversation of yesterday. If I am wrong in that impression, I am sure that you'll let me know. Otherwise, I guess we'll see each other on the battlefield!

[regoarrarr]

Email off to imhotep

Hi Imhotep,

Long time no email!

I noticed that you started drafting this turn. After some discussions with Exploit, it seems that he has urged you in some ways to attack my east, or at least make me spend units on that flank.

I was wondering if I have done something to annoy you? Did I pick on your kid sister when we were in grade school? Or toilet paper your house? Or maybe steal your girlfriend?

Just seems odd or at the very least unfortunate that we have been at odds for nearly this entire game. I don't know what I could possibly have done to improve our relationship. We started off with an early NAP. It is true that we ended up on different sides of the early alliances, but that was mostly due to geography - I believe the other civs had not met you yet (but maybe I'm mis-remembering). After that, you declared war on me, and then we spent several turns dealing with that, but after your stack was wiped out, you still were hostile.

Throughout that time and since, I sent several emails trying to work things out. No responses....

And now, we seem to be on the outs again...

Dunno - it's just frustrating for me that even though you have decided that you are unlikely to win and are investing little in this game, you continue to harass me and make it harder for ME to do well in the game, even though I have done all I feel I can to be friendly.

Also here's the rest of the chat with exploit

Exploit: It's unfortunate that I won't be seeing you in the next round of game play. I rather enjoyed our conversations. They make the game more interesting. I admit that I'm at least mildly curious as to what your counter-proposal was going to be before you decided to end negotiations and jump straight to war.
me: well who's to say we can't continue to talk once you've eliminated me?
Sent at 5:20 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: true but it's the rivalry in the game that gives us something to talk about.
me: yeah i guess
i'll probably be all spoilered from reading everyone's threads too
so i might not be able to be impartial
not that i'm impartial now i guess but you know what i mean
Exploit: I undrstand.
me: and as for ending negotiations that was not my intention
rather it was the impression i was getting from you
Exploit: so what is your counter-proposal?
me: your tone from yesterdray has changed more dramatically than 2 turns of drafts would seem to indicate (and for the record, i IMd you at 10:31 this morning to chat, before the turn rolled over but you must have been away, or maybe it was krill logged in)
Sent at 5:23 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: I didn't see any IM bu I may have missed it. I was on around that time.
I am on now. And I am listening.
me: weird
Sent at 5:25 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: My tone change is because I have done the math and tried a few sandbox simulation attacks using our respective troops. Based upon how little room you actually have left to draft and how long it will take you to build sufficient machine guns to make a difference in our war. I will overrun the 4 cities I mentioned plus a few more before you get enough machine guns to even slow me down even if you throw your entire stack on my front which opens you up to attack on other fronts. I now realize you are screwed if I press this attack which I thought was the case yesterday but I wasn't as certain.
Sent at 5:30 PM on Tuesday
me: okay
sorry to cut this short
but i have to get home
probably be tomorrow am before i'm around again
Sent at 5:34 PM on Tuesday
Exploit: np
me: draft another round and i might be willing to give you a few more cities :-D
Exploit: lol. You can be certain that the draft is going to happen.
have a good night
Sent at 5:37 PM on Tuesday

I also forwarded the chat transcript on to sunrise so he's aware. I need to hit up Broker