WW16: The Outlaws and The Olives

[waterbat]

I hate everyone.

[Injera]

Yes, captain obvious - I do think its entirely possible he's lying and am trying to get into his head without drawing a flashing fucking neon sign over it. But I guess that's out now. You're like the spiritual antecedent to zak, absolutely everything about your play is annoying.

I wish I knew how zak gets away with subtle scum-hunting and every fucking time I do everyone has to call me on it. He's been a wolf more often than me at this point. I hate everyone.

Well, for starters, when I asked him why he would assume Catwalk would be given a hand by the wolves you could have, you know, maybe tried to press him on the point and see what came out instead of trying to undermine my argument.

Seriously, though, I'm interested. You don't find his night actions plausible based on his claim, but is there more to your suspicions than that?

[Ichabod]

Ok, I still haven't read all that was posted on day 2, but let me answer to these accusations.

:wave2: zakalwe

Ok with novice.

Oh and a good day starts with a red vote so in memoriam zakalwe: Ichabod

Not for nothing, but you tried to set me up in WW11, when you were scum. While I generally think you're an excellent player, I think you think you understand me better than you actually do due to WW7 and this probably leads to you thinking you can lynch me. I only hang when I'm guilty, though. :oldwink:

I feel fairly secure that zakalwe and novice's reads are what got them killed and post-restricted respectively, and I think at this moment in time I like this read best.

Ichabod

I think even a post restricted Novice can be a good mayor

I will try to reread the thread, but for nowI will follow a dead mans read

Ichabod

Very nice, three votes, all based on Zakalwe's post before death. I bet if these three players were forced to say what was Zak's case against me right now, they wouldn't know how to explain it. But, of course, no such thing can be done, so let's proceed.

Zak's case against me, as far as I can tell, is based on my post against Gaspar that was coincidentally made while thestick was starting to be pressured by him and Novice and the fact that I said I suspected thestick but didn't vote for him. That's it. The rest is gut feeling (it was a "scummy post") + assumptions (like that I stopped posting due to fear of getting battered again).

You know what's interesting about this? It's interesting that there was a player who did the exact same thing that Zak accused me of doing, at basicly the same time. It was Lewwyn and I pointed this out in my answer to Zak, before end of night 1. Let's see:

Who's trying to cozy up to who Tasunke? A few posts ago you wanted to be my best friend as soon as someone else does the same thing you do you edge off? Competition for my affection is too scary it seems.


Catching up in the morning is always a pain. Something that struck me earlier was Injera's tone and aggressiveness. I really think that Injera is a villager. That said I don't see the argument against Gaspar, probably because I also suspect catwalk. Either way more important fish to fry.

The other big argument here is thestick and I'm on board to a point. My only issue is he's only got one post so we can call this a definitive lynch. So come on thestick.

sorry, should be: can't call this a definitive lynch*

Still waking up :zzz:

The core reason that I'm okay with voting for thestick is that I feel his post was, yes, A) lazy B) Trying WAY too hard. I'm on board to that point and there's a lot to be said for that much. I'm not so much on board with the questions bit being out of line for thestick. Last game had a similar feel in terms of style for him, but then I suppose I suspected him in that game as well. This time though there's no private convo he can whip out to prove his villageryness.

WTF? I had to read this like 5 times before I even think I understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying that Gaspar fabricated "a little gem of insight" (Also wtf is this BTW) as a result of having 2 extremely early votes that didn't really mean much? That he was spooked into coming after you? Or are you saying you intentionally posted what you posted in order to "trap" some unwitting wolf in your web? I mean... WTF. Catwalk

What's up with all the people not voting? EH?

I'm going to bed soon. Midnight here. Won't be up for lynch. In the end the important stuff is going to happen after I go to sleep.

Bigger

I ask everyone to go back and read this posts in the time they were made. Lewwyn went aboard with the thestick lynch, but when the heat started getting really high, he jumped ship. Maybe he found someone he suspected more, maybe he was trying to divert attention away. But one thing is certain, it was the same thing that Zakalwe's accused me off.

But did anyone take the time to go and check that? Not the people who voted for me, apparently, which is frustrating.

And regarding the posts from the people that voted for me, at least Rowain and Jkaen said explicitly that they were just following Zak. Gaspar post is a whole other level:

Not for nothing, but you tried to set me up in WW11, when you were scum. While I generally think you're an excellent player, I think you think you understand me better than you actually do due to WW7 and this probably leads to you thinking you can lynch me. I only hang when I'm guilty, though. :oldwink:

I feel fairly secure that zakalwe and novice's reads are what got them killed and post-restricted respectively, and I think at this moment in time I like this read best.

Ichabod

He made sure to point out that he's not following Novice and Zak, he just reached the same conclusion, even though he probably didn't go to look for the posts by Lewwyn, like I already had indicated in my answer. Why suspect me based on something and not Lewwyn based on the same thing? If you agree with the read from Zak, that should be explained.

There is also a very bad and suspicious part in this post, that I want to point out:

"While I generally think you're an excellent player, I think you think you understand me better than you actually do due to WW7 and this probably leads to you thinking you can lynch me. I only hang when I'm guilty, though".

Thinking I can lynch you? Holy, that's a good one. Let's point some things here:

1. You imply that I, a wolf, think I can lynch you, a villager, because I think I understand you more than I do. But what understanding you has to do with anything if I'm a wolf?? If I'm a wolf, I don't need to understand you, I know you are a villager or a wolf. I need to understand you if I'm a villager and I don't have this info. Understanding is moot when someone is playing wolf.

If I was a wolf, I would only need to fake a case and that's it. There's no understanding involved. Just fake some things that stick and there you go. Gut feelings and understanding don't play a part in it. You are using a rationale based on villager play to accuse me of wolf play. It doesn't make any sense.

2. You imply that I made some sort of egocentric attempt to lynch you, me being a wolf and you a villager. Why on earth would I do that? Why wouldn't I pick an easier player, someone that made a slip (I already pointed this out, but I don't think anyone paid attention). It's not hard to find this things in a day 1 with 26 players if you are a wolf.

"Leads to you thinking you can lynch me"? Do you really believe in your own words? You were the one who pointed out that I'm an extremely careful player as a wolf, especially because I don't want to harm my team. So why would I get a crazy desire to lynch you and throw me in the middle of the heat (especially since, originally, I was supposed to be trying to save thestick - even more reason to go for an easy target)? This doesn't add up. I'm not a narcisistic player like that. I was not trying to set you up. I suspected you based on a tell and I presented it, that was it.

Seriously, this post by Gaspar is so, so bad, that I'll be amazed to see if no one picked on it (I haven't read all the thread so there's still hope), especially with everyone saying that Gaspar is easy to read. This post is very similar to the Injera/Catwalk one from the beggining of the game, that I argued about (an argument that was so bad and scummy according to everyone). It's just a bad attempt at making a case, because everyone is expecting a case from Gaspar. Compare Gaspar post with the one from Jkaen and Rowain to see how they say the same, but the one from Gaspar is way more cautious and way more "this is my own thoughts, not from other people". But, essentialy, they are the same.

Now I just need to figure out if this is just bad/lazy play by Gaspar or if he's just a wolf slipping and giving himself easily. Leaning more to the latter right now.

[Arromir]

Well looks like there haven't been too many new developments since my last post. Sareln has shown up with a single post, but nothing to minimize my suspicions of him. It will be interesting to see if and where the votes swing, as currently he's in the lead.

Uberfish still strikes me as scummy as well, mostly due to his voting, and the tone of his posts has struck me as inconsistently odd. I also found it curious that he called me out, but ignored the fact I stated I suspected him in my response post. Since I know I'm town, but have admittedly played a rather scummy game so far, in terms of my awkward posts, it just seemed as potential groundwork for a mislynch, to see if anyone else would jump on.

[Sareln]

Why Catwalk favored? Alot of noise, few suspicions, and a ton of posts after claiming to be gone, and I'm not liking the feel of him right now. Of course, that's all small things so I think it's more effective to lay the vote down and get some pressure going. Sometimes it just has to be played by gut.

----

Tasunke's Litany. 15 of his 37 posts, chron. Order from Top to Bottom. I don't quote these as defense per-say, but rather to point out that if I get lynched (and I will flip vanilla villager) you should consider what it says about Tasunke's alignment. Right now I am personally of the opinion that he is also village but is in love with a theory of my guilt .

Sareln

and

Lewwyn

Also Sareln, what the hell with that Amtrak trains excerpt? I think its almost worse than my book report from last game.

I completely overlooked it at first, but I am re-reading now (and it really stuck out, for me), and for you to do something like this ... perhaps a scumtell?

This part sort of stood out to me. Perhaps both Sareln and Lewwyn are wolves? Or maybe just wolf-Sareln is trying to cozy up to Lewwyn? not sure ...

still, its enough of a wolfish read to get me unsure about my Lewwyn vote for mayor.

Therefore, perhaps I shall vote either Zakalwe or Serdoa for mayor.

hmm, are Qqqq, Lewwyn, and Sareln all wolves?

no matter, my strongest read is on Sareln anyways.

looking at the mayor vote tallies, it looks like my vote on Serdoa (for mayor) may not do much good. Therefore, I think that perhaps I should land my vote on Zakalwe for now.

Well Sareln, I suppose that for now there is the excuse for you being on the road (what with the Amtrak, but I'm pretty sure you'd have a lot of free time on a train )

... but you just don't seem to be giving us your normal "village helpfulness" ... I mean sure, you've given spread sheets as a wolf before, but c'mon ... you have given almost no explanation for any of your actions (other than for why you are voting for Mattimeo)

For instance, could you give some more explanation for why you are voting Lewwyn for mayor? And why you then followed him onto Qqqqqq? At least I did give some explanation, and upon reviewing the evidence I decided to change my mayoral vote (in part due to your continued lack of explanation). So what are your reasons then?

the stick

not sure how much time until the deadline (likely not much, I'd imagine), but it doesn't look like my Sareln vote is going to do me much good today. And although Mattimeo was silly for voting me, he doesn't seem to be screaming wolf at the moment. I'll need to look into this.

I still fine Sareln to be quite suspicious. After all, his vote right after Serdoa switched off Mattimeo baited Serdoa into re-voting matt. (yes, I'll admit the logic is a bit circular, but think about it!)

I feel that the sudden string of votes against Matt was primarily a wolf push (with innocents mixed in of course) and that Sareln was at the heart of it.

iirc, there WAS a push against Bigger at the last minute, and Sareln was involved in that push too

Guys? I just did the tally and ... this vote was a LOT more close than any of us villagers thought

Final tally was thestick(9) and Bigger(8)!

Here is the breakdown

The Stick: Zakalwe, Novice, Bigger, (Merovech left), Tasunke, Mattimeo, Arromir, Serdoa, (Pindicator left), Twinkletoes, and Molach.

Bigger: Rowain, Lewwyn, Injera, Jkaen, (Catwalk left), Sareln (324), Merovech (328), Uberfish (336), re-Catwalk (337)***

Injera: Gaspar n Waterbat

Waterbat: Azza

Uberfish: Qqqq

Gaspar: Selrahc

Jkaen: Meiz

Merovech: Pindicator


***= the final assault

The Stick: Zakalwe, Novice, Bigger, (Merovech left), Tasunke, Mattimeo, Arromir, Serdoa, (Pindicator left), Twinkletoes, and Molach.

Bigger: Rowain, Lewwyn, Injera, Jkaen, (Catwalk left), Sareln (324), Merovech (328), Uberfish (336), re-Catwalk (337)***

the dark red didn't help ... so here is in all white for clarity

I gave post numbers to the votes of the final Bigger push.

You can see Sareln kicking it off right after Catwalk left, similar to how Sareln voted Mattimeo right after Serdoa left matt.

Then you see, within 10 minutes, Merovech and Uberfish backing up Sareln's vote.

And finally, Catwalk switches to Bigger, a vote he had earlier.

Yes, I feel that Sareln and Uberfish's involvement in the pushes for both Mattimeo and Bigger as quite telling, personally.

Not just that, but the way they have been posting. For instance Uberfish's "fake anger" in posts 206 and 208.

It is possible that in posts 206-208 or so (including Novices suspicions of Uberfish much earlier) could have been a classical distancing move between Uberfish and Novice.

Then perhaps Uberfish felt that he could risk getting himself directly involved in pushes, so that if he took the fall Novice wouldn't go with him? Hard to say for now.

But what I *DO* know is that Uberfish and Sareln look quite scummy ... and if Uberfish is indeed scum, it is quite possible that there was an actual planned distancing in posts 206-208 ... making Novice a likely lurker wolf.

Still, far better, in my opinion at least, to lynch the obvious wolves before the lurker wolves.

Therefore a Sareln (or Uberfish) lynch tomorrow would be as good as any.

(I had been keeping my suspicions of Uberfish a secret throghout the day, but I think that now is a well enough time to reveal them)

So Merovech ... while you are talking about "reasons for voting bigger", and agreeing that voting bigger is a bit suspicious, you, who voted bigger in the midst of the dogpile, what possible reason could you have for thinking the stick as innocent?

And I would like to hear a reason, instead of "well, I started to think he was innocent".

And don't try to say its because of his watcher power, because you made no mention of his roleclaim as far as I can tell.

Instead, you dryly said "I think the stick may be innocent" after who knows how many hours of having your vote on said stick. Now, yes, *perhaps* you are less suspicious because you weren't being Obv wolf like Sareln or Uberfish, plus the fact that you were voting the stick anyways (and so voting for a fellow wolf does look a bit scummy) BUT! In the end, at 10 minutes to go, you switch from fellow wolf to possible victim. Why the switch? Well its pretty wolfish to switch at the very last minute in order to get the result you wanted, and maybe your vote towards the stick was only an attempt at cover, and to artificially boost the 'stick vote' to make it easier, later on, to can some other guy.

Still, this is like, the *only* scummy thing I've seen you do thus far, but its still pretty bad in my book. You and Pindicator both it seems, but since Pindicator didn't vote for 2nd runner up, perhaps it was, in actuality, solely due to the power claim.

I don't really want to come across as acrimonious ... its just that you, who have voted Bigger in a shady manner, are accusing others by way of piggy backing on other people's ideas AND trying to distract us from Obvscum Sareln.

That is all.

(Pindicator, I don't really think you are scum because you de-voted stick ... its just that you followed a similar pattern so I felt it was woth mentioning ... but then again I think you actually mentioned his power claim in your unvote/revote thing. I dunno, I mean neither of you are Obvscum or anything, but I also think that Merovech is a darker shade of suspicious than you are).

In summary...

Sareln and Uberfish = obvscum

Merovech = Dark Shady

Catwalk = light shady

Pindicator = sketchy


But in reality, the only people I am anywhere near close to voting for (tomorrow) would be Sareln and Uberfish.

thank you for extrapolating.

I cannot agree, however, that Injera and Catwalk are scummier than Sareln.

I've been getting a rather null-read on Injera up till now, perhaps I should re-read to see where you are coming from.

hmm, so wrapped up in voting for mayor I forgot my lynch vote.

Sareln

As to my own votes day 1, I opened with Tasunke, Followed Lewwyn onto Qgqqqqq, Pushed Mattimeo as an alternative to theStick, and then pushed Bigger as an alternative to theStick and Mattimeo since I think a more conservative play would've been better than potentially lynching a village investigative/protective role. Sounds pretty damn bad when we know now that theStick was guilty as hell, doesn't it?

But think about the atmosphere of day 1 when we didn't know anything about theStick? He makes one 20-questions style post and gets some pressure, which builds throughout the course of the day. There's a general sense of unease: how come this wagon is sticking? If theStick's a wolf shoudln't there be some attempt to save him? The sinking feeling is that he's a villager, but because he has disappeared, people who've voted for him have no reason to move their votes, and the wolves are content with the situation. (this turns out not to be true, but we don't know that at the time). So then if we're careening towards a blow-out day 1 without (to me) an obvious case, it becomes imperative to mix things up. Even if we end up lynching the same guy (which we do), we should try and generate some movement for us to analyze later in the game.

And yes, I'm aware of the irony there, but better to get some movement and action and draw a bunch of heat than to let a lot-to-a-little lynch go through and learn nothing if the person is innocent.

Of course it's just my luck theStick flips wolf, so now I'm screwed.

@ Bigger, I guess the sticking memories in WW for me are the ones where it's lynch defense time. Didn't realize my record was so good in the last 5 - 6 games.

[Merovech]

First, what I was going to post before Ichabod's post (not affected by his post): Originally when zakalwe accused you, he mentioned that you "promised" to vote thestick, which struck me as a very strange thing for anyone, but especailly a wolf, to do. This somewhat cleared you in my mind, at least in comparison with Sareln/uberfish/Injera/Catwalk. I wanted to check to be sure that I understood correctly, however, before I posted. After rereading, I see that you did not in fact "promise" to vote thestick at all, just mentioned that you were not drastically opposed to lynching him. This is much more scummy to me. Your votes, or lack thereof, do not help your case, although I understand being busy at the deadline. That being said, while it seems like you distracted from the thestick lynch, Sareln actively worked against it, with his post talking about the testable nature of thestick's claim and his vote switches. That is why, for now, I am still voting for Sareln. However, yo do join my list of non-Sareln suspects.

Now, my response to your post:
Ichabod, I am not at all convinced by your defense post. I think your comparison with Lewwyn misses a very important point: You argument against Gaspar was absolutely ridiculous, while none of Lewwyn's arguments immediately confused me when I read it, like yours did (although I ignored it at the time because I was unsure of the whole Gaspar-Injera tiff).

[Gaspar]

Seriously, though, I'm interested. You don't find his night actions plausible based on his claim, but is there more to your suspicions than that?

Honestly, I watched a village full of lemmings jump off Selrahc last game after he claimed "Doctor" and then did nothing to prove it, so you'll pardon me if I'm skeptical of unproven role claims. The fact that zak was so obvious to protect just tweaked me more.

I only have a second because its halftime of the Arsenal match, so I'll get to Ichabod's Heroic Epic after the game. I'll give you a preview:

<post>
<post>
<same post>

OMG GASPAR IS SO SCUMMY FOR THIS UNSEEABLE REASON THAT ONLY I SEE. You've basically sung the same tune everytime we've played together since WW7, I guess I'll have to dig out the old posts to prove it. A task for this evening.

Whatever you might think, its apparent you ALWAYS think I'm a wolf when we play together and yet you're ALWAYS wrong and you keep coming back to it. So you're either scum or not on your village game this time. Period.

[Merovech]

Hmm, now Sareln has actually posted a reasonable defense. Honestly, the unease at what seemed like an uncontested day 1 lynch was the reason I switched off thestick, so I feel somewhat hypocritical; however, I still feel his actions Day 1 were incredibly scummy, more so than even mine*.

*I must admit, if I did not know that I was innocent, I would probably place myself in my non-Sareln lynch suspect list.

[Ichabod]

I agree with the argument that Arromir post was strange (the one about justifying the vote on scum), being too defensive. Like waterbat pointed out:

I agree though, who searches their name in the thread as a town member? Townies read through the thread hunting mafia, not search the thread to cover their asses. I can remember doing this as NAP/wolf, however.

Matimeo also did something similar, which I also find interesting, because most people believed in his claim of "cloaker". The following post reads defensive to me too:

Skimmed through looking for things concerning me, will go through again with more detail to work out suspicions.

There seems to be a slight discrepancy between this statement:

and the behavior so far today...



I also appreciate the part where I'm established as town, but it's still imperative that I let the wolves know how many shots I have left...



Just said I was a 3-shot cloaker, then went on to explain what that entailed.



(also, pretty sure it's been covered already, but BRick did specifically mention the absence of a 'classic' banner)

Bigger specifically said that there wouldn't be a normal baner or roleblocker. This cloaker role could act either as a baner substitute or as a roleblocker substitute, which would make the wolves not able to kill and roleblock the same target. The role Mattimeo claimed is pretty believable, in my opinion, but I'm not convinced about the alignment the role entails.

Regarding Qgqqqqq, I've skimmed through his few character posts and I couldn't read them, at least not understand anything out of it. After I finish the thread I'll take a look at the order of those posts quoted by Novice, to see if they were, indeed, made in a suspicious way (a sudden change of mind with no explanations).

[Serdoa]

Merovech