WW 19 Game Thread - Mobster Mayhem - GAME OVER

[Tasunke]

[quote='Rowain' pid='323497' dateline='1357294673']
[quote='novice' pid='323491' dateline='1357293803']
Brick, will the items in a person's possession be revealed upon the person's death?

Let's assume it will. In that case doing this as a scum gambit would be suicide. It makes no sense.

But that's just it. Lets assume that items aren't revealed. Then lets assume the scum already asked this and found out it was so. In that case, it would make perfect sense as a scum ploy. Nothing more dangerous than a fool card running amok that people thought was destroyed.

[Tasunke]

If I get to hold on to the Fool card I can just publicize that fact, and we'll have a reliable Ouija board. If the scum have the lockpick and choose to steal my card
1) The cloak could catch them in the act
2) They'd have to leave me with the lockpicks
3) They can't use the lockpicks to steal any other item which might be even more useful to scum

These are really good points.

The scum will probably try to be stealing the pistol, the cloak, or the ouija board. Lots of good targets for the lockpick ... but on the other hand, who is to say the scum started with the lockpicks ...

I mean heck, sure it would make 'sense' in a game with permanent powers to give the crowbar and the lockpick to the wolves but ... somehow I think that'd possibly make this set up too easy (for the wolves).

No ... I think they DIDN"T start with the crowbar, but maybe they DID start with the lockpick. So they will have to try and find power roles the good ole fashioned way.

Anyways, I'm definitely waiting to see what info we get upon death before approaching the Witoh question about Novice, but for now I'd say a village lean.

[zakalwe]

Do you have the (real) fool tarot card, Rowain? Otherwise I don't understand why you want to lynch Novice. I also agree with what Selrahc said, that it's a strange "first assumption" to make that Novice is on some elaborate scum gambit. I can maybe understand how it could feel that way intuitively, but logically it makes no sense.

I also took Tasunke's post as a joke, and a null tell. I was annoyed by it, though, although I forgot to comment last night. I wouldn't mind seeing him mod-killed for starting to "play" in the sign-up thread.

[zakalwe]

But that's just it. Lets assume that items aren't revealed. Then lets assume the scum already asked this and found out it was so. In that case, it would make perfect sense as a scum ploy. Nothing more dangerous than a fool card running amok that people thought was destroyed.

You lost me. Novice is scum, and lynching him will somehow convince us that the fool tarot card has been destroyed??

[zakalwe]

Actually, that sounds a lot like Tasunke was trying to cook up a logical argument for why Novice is scum, and then unwittingly letting his knowledge that Novice will flip innocent creep in.

Tasunke

[novice]

Item Related Rules:

0. One of each listed item will be present in the game.
1. Items may be PASSED from player to player during the night. Players pass Items anonymously: they PM me who they would like to pass which Item to and then I inform the new owner without revealing the name of who gave him the item. Item passes resolve before all other night actions. The Parchment MUST be passed.
2. Players may acquire more than one Item at a time but at night they must pass all but one Item to somebody else. They may not intentionally keep more than one Item, and they certainly may not USE more than one Item. If a player begins the night with more than one item, they MUST pass all but one item to other players. They may then also use the item they keep in its intended function.
3. Snitches cannot pass items to another Snitch if that will knowingly lead to a Snitch having more than one item. For Example, if BRickAstley is a snitch and has the Crowbar, and Mardoc is a snitch and has the Lockpick, BRick cannot pass the Crowbar to Mardoc if Mardoc keeps the Lockpick.
4. Players may only activate one Item a night, but if they are passed a passive item (Gas Can, Tarot Card, Bulletproof Vest) they may enjoy the benefits of that item plus the one they activated.
5. If a player dies, any items he holds are lost.
6. If there are more items than players in the game (due to deaths) then one of the items PASSED that night is randomly removed from the game.
7. You may not use AND pass the same item in one night, except for the parchment.

Night Order of Operations:

1. Padlock & Key
2. Other Item Usage
3. Lockpick & Gloves
4. Night Kill
5. Item Passes

Note: If the person with the cloak visits the same target that the person with the padlock jails in, he will see the person with the padlock. (i.e. Krill padlocks KingOfPain, Sullla uses cloak to watch KingOfPain, then Sullla still sees Krill)

Brick, could you clear up the contradictions here? I think you changed Item Passes to go last in the order of operations? How does that impact rule 4? I guess it's moot?

Also, what happens to an item that is passed to a player that was killed that night? Is the item destroyed or does it stay with the person attempting to pass the item?

[Selrahc]

Leaving aside the fool card for a second.

Something the Parchment can do that might be worth considering, is to leave a cypher. 60 characters is a pretty bare bones effort if you're defining 26 characters, but I think you could do something. Or a set of general code words. (Ruthless means suspicious. "Teh" means this sentence is a lie, etc.).

The best use for such limited out of thread communication that I can think of, is to facilitate hidden in thread communication. I think that can really end up being a pretty good thing for the village. So please don't waste the Parchment, whoever has it.

[Serdoa]

God, it is not even a day and already we have two (maybe three) angles to pursue. Lets start with the novice-fool thing.

Checks back pocket

Hey! Who put this Fool Tarot Card here? Real funny.

novice

Why? I think claiming the fool card is solid play for the village, and was actually about to put it up for discussion.

Rowain

Because claiming that tarot card is clearly the right thing to do for a villager.

novice starting this by claiming the Fool-Tarot-Card and we get nearly immediately a lynch-vote on him as well as two players defending him because clearly only village would play like this. I don't like this. I do understand the lynch-vote from Rowain but don't like the timing. One minute after novice wrote his post. Thats awfully quick to come to the conclusion that this could be a snitch-move. He later does give good arguments why it does not necessarily mean village and even if it does why it could be considered a less severe mislynch. But still, I don't like the timing. You don't even stop for 5 minutes to think about the different implications Rowain? I actually had to go back to the item-list, read it (and reread it later because I remembered wrongly) and think about what that could mean and which plays might make sense. I currently have two theories for why you were so quick, but I'd like to hear your explanation first please.

As for uberfish and Selrahc:

1.) I don't like how they immediately defended novice. Would have been good to wait in this situation for his reply. I would have loved to know by his own words why he did reveal.

2.) I do think they have a point that this play makes sense for a villager. But Rowain has a point as well that it also makes sense for snitches.

In general I don't like the play but I think it is understandable and does not make me suspect them. What does make me suspicious though is this post:

Zakalwe for mayor!

Novice would be a pretty decent alternative, too. It seems overpowered to let the wolves rats start with the fool tarot card, especially considering how it could be passed among them.

I'm surprised zak. Have you actually considered what Rowain posted? Because I don't think the logical conclusion from all that is tht novice is a decent alternative for mayor. I don't think he is a snitch for certain - but his play is certainly not enough to make me want him to be mayor. Why is it for you? Also, is there a reason why you have not even commented on the whole novice-fool-tarot-card topic? I would have expected something along those lines when you actually put him up as mayor-alternative. I mean that clearly states that you believe him, but I think especially the discussion about what implactions the role could have and how it could be used in connection with other roles should be a puzzle that interests you.

Rowain, there's an item seer as well, how does that fit your meta considerations?

Why do you expect that the item seer is village? I actually would have expected that the item seer together with the lockpicker is wolf. That would give them the possibility to scan around looking for the best item to get while bearing the risk that the lockpicker gets lynched before he can get it.

Of course this is meta-speculation land already, but thats what your whole reveal gave us. But right now, we would have to hope that the item-seer is village, that he scries you and that he reveals if you don't have the card. And what if no one reveals tomorrow? Maybe the seer doesn't want to reveal, giving away two villagers in the process which become than prime targets for lynches. Or maybe he does - but how can we be sure he is telling the truth and is not one of your buddies? The alignment seer would have to scan him. But if you are all 3 wolfs (item-scanner, fool-card holder and you) then the fool-card-holder could tell he is the item-seer, get scanned as village and suddenly you and he are considered village. And the real item-seer wolf just have to lay low. Or the item seer just says he got pickpocketed. Even if the real item-scanner gets lynched, he wouldn't take neither you nor the fool-card holder with him. We have only 12 items, so I think it could be that the wolfs have fool-card, item-seer and lockpick together with a 4th wolf without any item.

So all in all, I don't think having an item-seer does help in any form to prove you being innocent novice. Maybe you should do that via your play instead? Lets start with telling us what you plan going forward. Whom do you pass the card or do you keep it for example?

ok, you mugs, listen up. I'm the mayor. If I can run a big city like Chicago and protect the family I can whip a rag-tag crew like yous guys in shape in no time. I ran Chicago like a machine, and even used the coppers to take out snitches. I still have a few dirty blue suits on the payroll, so stick with me and I'll make sure the rats get iced.

Besides, I'm the mayor. There can't be two mayors, thats too damn confusing. so vote Bigger if you know whats good for you, you mugs.

I'd also like to know what Tasunke's angle is. Have you gone straight, or what?

Same question that I asked zakalwe: No interest in even commenting on the whole novice-stuff?

Surprised no-one's brought up the fact that a counter-claim of miller would give us one garunteed scum out of two people. Seems a pretty good exchange rate for town, even if we hit wrong the first time.
As people have said, straight up claiming miller first thing is pretty much the strongest thing you can do with that role. Rowain

I think Lewwyn has already wrote an answer to this, but still. Claiming Miller first is pretty strong - just not for village alone. Why that is overlooked is beyond me. Also, this argument again expects novice to be village. It isn't good logic (it isn't logic at all to be correct) to base an argument for why someone is village on the premise that he is village.

I'm going to park my useless day 1 initial vote on Serdoa because of irritation last game.
Yes this vote is useless as it likely won't be there eod.
If anyone ignites that wordplay discussion again I will troll vote them today.

I won't have much time to post for another ~30 hours as I have friends coming round.

I think claiming the miller is pro-village at start of game, though I'm not sure that novice wasn't joking.

I think I have to vote you for this post Qgqqqq. Not for the useless vote but for the useless post. You basically posted to tell us "I'll make a vote that does not mean anything at all and won't play again before the day is not nearly finished". And you threaten later to vote for anyone daring to vote you. Honestly, that is so reminiscent of your last game that I wouldn't in the slighest be surprised to find out that you are again a wolf and just try to deflect any attention you might get with a play that nobody would expect.

Why isn't anyone else posting in the quicktopic? Am I alone?

Who hasn't checked their role PM?

Also, my PM tells me Ryan is innocent so ... go figure >.>

And why has no one even questioned that? Tasunke, care to elaborate a little bit? If I understand you right, your role-PM included an information that Ryan is a villager? I have a hard time believing that, given that their is no role that would require such an information (no Masons as far as I can see). Together with your quicktopic slip-up it might very well be that you just try to make him look like a buddy of yours in case you are lynched.

So, to conclude, right now I suspect

Qgqqqq: For his useless post trying to skate by Day1.
Tasunke: Slip-up in other topic + his claim to know about Ryans alignment
novice: As his play is awfully dangerous for the village if he is wolf and I don't see how it benefits the village right now.

For now though, I dislike Qgqqqqs post the most, therefore

Qgqqqq

And for mayor, as always: Serdoa

[Serdoa]

Oh, and crossposted with a bunch of stuff. I started when there was 1 post on page 6 (10 posts per page).

[zakalwe]

Sorry for the quadruple posting. I had another thought. Could Novice pass the fool tarot card to someone else tonight, announcing in advance who it will be? Then the seer can make his choice about who to investigate with this knowledge in mind. And the person receiving the card can confirm that Novice is legit. Something for theorizers like Selrahc to munch on. Maybe it's a bad idea for some reason, but I don't immediately see any downsides.

Maybe something like this is what Novice was getting at, with his last question?