[SPOILERS] Muffin's spoiler thread of delicious baked goodness and half baked ideas

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

I don't think 500AD cataphracts are too ambitious, I think that might actually be a bit late. At least in my experience, you can get cuirs (sp imm/deity with tech trade so isn't really comparable, but anyway). And I've seen better guilds dates on games at this site (pb18 spoiler info):

In pb18 dtay and finharry have guilds at something like 275AD, and FinHarry went for CS first so it wasn't a straight beeline and didn't involve bulbing or delaying expansion. Those spoiler threads might be useful info for kngith rushing.

So if you're planning to go light on infra and do short-term investments like lots of failgold I think you should aim for an ambitious date.

I got a little confused when I was typing this, going purely on a guesstimate of what year would be what turn number, as I normally play quick speed I couldn't quite work it out. I would generally aim to hit knights on a non beeline unless I was ignoring guilds for some higher purpose (generally I don't as I like keeping closed borders and running mercentilism, no one opens borders online) around turn 80-90. So you are right, a beeline *should* get me to them quicker if all goes right. We shall see! I will check out their thread sometime later for info, thanks for that.

My only issue with the fail gold atm is I cannot see any stone to failgold off. So I will have to either deviate off track slightly or build other stuff to fail gold (I guess colossus, as I am sure I will be able to secure copper somewhere) EDIT the aforementioned comment will make more sense with a map update.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Well due to RL issues I have spent most of my civ time playing turns and sorting out the new pitboss, however I did screenshot as I went so we shall have one mega update to bring everyone back to speed. Turn speed has been fairly brisk, at least a turn a day which is rather nice.

So we last updated the map turn 8, see the previous map post. So here is turn 9:




I decided to loop around to the SE as where the scout was that seemed natural and to check out the eastern 2 hammer possible plant south of the sheep. This turned out to be a freshwater lake (which I would have noticed if I would have been paying attention) So that plant now looks a bit meh.

By turn 11 I had found this:




Which has made me defintely want to settle on my 11 marker at some point - I can make 3 lake tiles 3 food, and pretty much block a pass to my capital, as well as work sheep from capital culture. I then looped my scout around to try and expose all of the southern 1st ring tiles and found this on turn 13:




More marble! Although no obvious resources close by. I felt this deserved further exploration nearby, which revealed some pigs and silver, albeit further south, and then the most interesting thing of all...




Another player! Jowy... Well I doubt I will want to irritate him and settle towards that marble early. I felt it was a good idea after I had jumped up onto the silver and spied the borders to come up and say hello to get any possible tech bonuses. Not quite sure where I will go with the scout now. North of Jowy seems like a bit of a waste as I am just bumping up against the sea. I could just forge out into the wilderness and try and find people, but I also still need to explore around the capital for a definite second city site. My idea east was a let down, although I think that a city 1S of the banana would be a good city, but it needs a border pop before it can pick up cows to the east. If I could get a religion in there though it should secure the marble site for me nicely. I am keen on picking up a hammer bonus on the 2nd city plant though, which would mean that I need to settle one of the western hills on the 3W line of the capital.

To settle the best location with certainty I really need to pull the scout back to look up there, and head out west of the capital. I will send the warrior north to scout so he can be pulled back to whichever city location I choose once I have all the available info. The other thing I noticed just looking at these maps now is that the grassland hills to the southwest of the capital seem to be an island... That would be great to settle for bonus trade routes, so to not kill that city location probably I will need to settle either 3W1N of the capital or 3E3N of the capital... definitely need the scout back here ASAP!

On the demo front everyone is size 2, everyone has 2 techs researched and it is all a bit unremarkable. I have already got graphs on bob which are wholely uninteresting so I will switch over to jowy next turn who is the most important player to watch for a power spike early. In other news the worker has farmed away and following his micro plan nicely!

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Another couple of turns gone by and not much happening in the world. Will grow to size 3 EoT, finish a warrior and start a settler, scout coming back to view western sites before he is built and warrior will cover. I have got a potential dotmap for the east though. (I don't normally bother drawing them out so I apologise for the poor quality of the lines:




It is a little tight, but there are enough resources to warrant that I feel. They are all based off the southern city which maximises lighthousable lakes, then the sugar city to claim the marble, and a filler city inbetween which I feel is worth it.

Hopefully I will be allowed to claim these!

[von Adlercreutz]

To me your dotmap seems bit slow. 2nd city doesn't have a strong food resource in the first ring (farmed banana isn't strong) and it requires a border pop to get the cows. You seem to put food in the 2nd ring quite often, for example the northern spot, which seems bad at least without cre trait. That istmush spot with the lake, well the location is ok but it's also a slow city. Those lake tiles are only little better than farms and require a 60-hammer investment. So I wouldn't prioritize the spot too hard.

If you have time to get fishing early I'd settle 3S of the capitol, it would have fish which actually is the strongest (visible) food nearby and it would be close and useful for tile sharing.

[spacetyrantxenu]

To settle the best location with certainty I really need to pull the scout back to look up there, and head out west of the capital. I will send the warrior north to scout so he can be pulled back to whichever city location I choose once I have all the available info. The other thing I noticed just looking at these maps now is that the grassland hills to the southwest of the capital seem to be an island... That would be great to settle for bonus trade routes, so to not kill that city location probably I will need to settle either 3W1N of the capital or 3E3N of the capital

I'm unclear on if you mentioned those possible settling sites because they would fit better with a proposed island city's BFC or because you thought you would otherwise be unable to settle the island city because of the other cities violating the minimum distance requirement. In case it's the second reason, and apologies if you already knew it, if that's an island then you can settle inside the minimum distance of another city since it would be on a different landmass and the minimum distance requirement therefore would not take effect.

Good thread so far, I'm reading.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Thanks for the posts guys. This has all changed in the last few turns and I now have some time to update, but will first answer the questions as I was thinking at the time.

Space - I do know that if you have a separate landmass that you can violate the 2 tile distance city rule. I found this out a while back trying to understand why London and Paris could be founded on earth18 experimenting with possibilities in the worldbuilder. I meant kill as in figuratively I would be killing the city; the city would be sharing so many tiles it would be pretty rubbish (the one on the plains hill 2N, not the island city) Plus I only noticed it was an island with the recent scout moves, which was confirmed with moves in the next post.

I am all for tight settling on a resource heavy map but that takes things a little too far for me!

Von al - the sites I have proposed aren't set in stone, but I do genuinely believe that they are the best eastern sites. The southernmost one was not a early settle plan but for later on. The northernmost one I like as I get bonus food with the grassland marble there is a decent enough square to work pre culture.

I am interested in where you think a city in the middle of those 2 would be the most powerful? I am convinced the best early plan would be to share some food with the capital, ie the sheep. Moving any further east for cows first ring would deny this. It then also would not make the city riverside, or coastal. There it gains use of 4 resources. Bare in mind (I'm sure I posted this somewhere) that I plan for an early religion and would be timing it to be founded in the second city, which was why I was keen to plonk that as a 2nd city. I would make the sugar third ring near the marble and hopefully secure it for myself, although admittedly with the southern marble spotted now I am feeling less like this is 100% needed. The final plus this city has is even if I miss a religion for whatever reason I will still pick up the southern sheep with the capital's border expansion on turn 50.

I do not think a city 3S of the capital is a great idea, if I had gone fishing I would have done it pre pottery and I am on a tight tech timeline to get the oracle. Plus I would not have early bronze working to chop the workboat out even if I did not go for religion so that city would be very slow. If I could send a workboat from the cap there then it would be worth a lot more consideration I think.

The way I play is I like to work out what would be the most powerful long term dotmap and see if there is a good early city that I can plant. If there isn't then I will alter the map accordingly. But I do think that middle city is a good second site.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

So not much happened until turn 21 as the scout was just backtracking, the worker slowly improving the resource tiles and the warrior not revealing anything of note. However, the scout move on turn 21 was rather revealing...




Well that is rather nice... A riverside close second city, which can share food and has another powerful food resource 1st ring, and a nice flood plain... Religion here would not be that useful, but the actual location is so much more powerful. I cannot decide right now, but I feel like I definitely want to settle there, and to hell with making it a bit meh with the island city. I have not had time to sim the outcomes although I will this weekend which I am sure will give me plenty of time to decide which is most powerful, and secondarily whether I need culture in the middle site (which would push me to want to settle there preferentially perhaps)

Turn 23 showed this:




There is a great spot to settle a city where the scout is to lock down my western front. Which would make the holy city less useful in the plains hill sheep site. Although that desert hill site would need a border pop and fishing, so it is more of a longer term city.

However the most intriguing find is the gems. They are awkward to use in that position and covered by jungle, but are the most accessible early happy. The silver is a little too close to Jowy and war chariots for my liking. They do not fit into my dotmap however... I will need to think about that a little more. On the bright side, if I were to go for the western settle I can use the scout to ensure there are no other players or barbs anywhere near the settler when he moves, so I will sit him on the desert hill if I decide to go west.

The more I look at the map even though the city would not be as powerful, the eastern city would be amazing to have a holy city in. I would lock down a lot of the land between myself and bob with a first ring city, whereas left I have not seen anyone where holy city culture would be useful against.

[von Adlercreutz]

Well, you might guess my opinion but definitely go for the western site. It has everything: plain hill for hammer bonus, food sharing and 1st ring food and could grow cottages for cap. Civ is a snowball game, I think these early advantages overweight easily any long term benefits from having (possibly) holy city in the optimal spot.

That desert hill further west is bit tricky. I agree it's strategically and defensively best to put it where the scout is. But if that's not going to be your future border I'd still at least consider options which give the fish in the 1st ring.

I didn't propose that site 3S of cap necessarily as the 2nd city but more as an ok site I think you should settle when convenient techwise.

Also I didn't remember your reli plan when commenting on the banana site. It's still risky to count on getting one, but if it would succeed that site wouldn't need the monument making it ok.

I think settling the northernmost site on sugar makes less sense the further you delay it as you became closer to getting teches for actually improving the sugar. Settling with crabs first ring has both the early benefit of having the food immediately and long term having that sugar tile. So on the sugar has only a mid-term advantage over my proposed spot (well you might need the marble asap but can't know that yet).

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Well, you might guess my opinion but definitely go for the western site. It has everything: plain hill for hammer bonus, food sharing and 1st ring food and could grow cottages for cap. Civ is a snowball game, I think these early advantages overweight easily any long term benefits from having (possibly) holy city in the optimal spot.

That desert hill further west is bit tricky. I agree it's strategically and defensively best to put it where the scout is. But if that's not going to be your future border I'd still at least consider options which give the fish in the 1st ring.

I didn't propose that site 3S of cap necessarily as the 2nd city but more as an ok site I think you should settle when convenient techwise.

Also I didn't remember your reli plan when commenting on the banana site. It's still risky to count on getting one, but if it would succeed that site wouldn't need the monument making it ok.

I think settling the northernmost site on sugar makes less sense the further you delay it as you became closer to getting teches for actually improving the sugar. Settling with crabs first ring has both the early benefit of having the food immediately and long term having that sugar tile. So on the sugar has only a mid-term advantage over my proposed spot (well you might need the marble asap but can't know that yet).

I agree that for instant bonus the plains hill provides and the first ring food is pretty hard to beat. Although there are 2 good resources to use rather quickly with a religion. I do not think that it would be too much to risk to plan a religion in that city as I will be going for it pre bronze working. With the only myst start I think that would pretty much cement me getting it, as much as you can cement anything in civ.

Yeah I do not know enough to plan too much that far west yet, though with how close bob is east I cannot imagine that there would be room for 1 and a bit cities each one way and 3 the other. Plus any cities further out than that become very exposed, like the Ypres sailent on the WW1 western front. So I would need a lot of power out there to keep them safe, and that far from the cap things will get expensive so I would probably not settle out there before wanting to war most likely.

Again that is the issue with going north of the sugar. The further from the cap it is the harder it is to defend. I do not want to give people any openings in thinking that I would be easy to attack. If I have a big army in that city they could be easily cut off by cutting the road, or if I had a mobile stack I would be forced to hit with it if he moved onto that tile. I would prefer the city being a little slower and easier to defend. Plus thinking of the actual implications, not settling the sugar nets +1 gold over on the sugar. Platation sugar is 4/0/1, with a grassland city tile of 2/0/1. However a sugar city of 3/0/1 and a farmed grassland of 3/0/0 is very little different (post bio the farm is actually better) and also this gives me more flexibility to cottage here also. So whenever I settle it I will want to go ontop of the sugar, as my army cannot be cut off there, and the instant tile bonus is more than enough to speed the city up than being first ring crab (and I get an extra lighthouse lake for later)

I will definitely settle for those fish when I can, although they might be best left for the island city. I will need to work out the best settle plan shortly.

I think I value city defence over build up speed a lot more than you. Not getting picked as a war target can be game changing!

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Update time! Thanks for all the input regarding the cities, but I am going to ignore the voice in my head that loves a 2 hammer settle and go north to the cows on the river site.

Why?! I hear people scream :P well although the snowball is not quite as good at the start at 3 city it is a lot better. Basically I will not have time to tech fishing thus needing the 2 and 3 cities to use the resources we have seen so far. The best by far position of the city to use the cow is the proposed spot that I have xed which gives access to 4 food resources that can eventually be split off but in the early game will be big. However this does need culture to work the best of those, the grass cow, and without it's own source of culture will need to wait a while to use the plains hill sheep.

This contrasts with the other site which gets a bonus hammer and first ring grass sheep and a first ring flood plain. It gains very little by having a second ring of culture. Whilst building this first gets me moving maginally quicker, any increase in speed is lost by the third city being a bit of a lame duck or founded in a worse position. Then there is also the meta game of giving myself a good buffer to the east where I seem to have a close rival where to the west I do not seem to have found anyone yet and can lock down that front easily with one well placed city anyway.

Interestingly in sims both of these sites do not actually need a road to be connected. Due to the nature of the game thinking adjacent river tiles are connected, regardless if they are the same river or not I will not need to road for a trade route. This saves a lot of worker turns. They are both foundable on turn 30 which is respectable. Most people have grown to size 4 it seems so my demos look a little glum, but I'm not too worried yet.







pbem62

I am not committed to this plan yet but to have the strongest possible combo at 3 city it has to be so. I think I am far enough away from bob that it will not spark a commodore/pin style disagreement like in pbem62, although I could be wrong...