[Spoilers] CH tries to be more than a warm body

[Cheater Hater]

I read every update, even if I don't always have something useful to say

I would absolutely advise you to settle C4/C5 and have some military there before you complete HG; it's not worth building if the benefit only applies to four cities, and you really want C4/C5 in particular to establish a solid border with Donovan. Having HG would also make you a tempting target to Mr. Impis, especially if your border cities have just one or two defenders. Most of the other cities you could plant are fillers or in your backline and so can safely be delayed in favour of HG.

HG is probably worth the effort in your case; EXP/CHA with Stone makes it easier to build and more lucrative, so even though T73 seems pretty early to me, I do think going for it early will help you out in the long run.

Thanks for the support, even if my updating has been sporadic lately--one downside of the micro sheet is I spend a lot of turns on autopilot, then have to think a ton about how the next set of micro will go. That's not a bad thing since it forces me to have a plan, but since reports generally coincide with thinking, it means reports are less-numerous and/or more boring ("I followed the micro sheet again, here are some scouting pictures and graphs"). I mean, I'm sure the optimal path is to recalculate things every turn, but there are diminishing returns to doing so.

One weird thing is that this game has a much faster early tech pace, as others are complaining about in various threads (mostly the RtR forum). T59 does seem early for Math without a direct beeline, but is 6 cities by T70 that fast?

At this point I'm still not sure what to think of DZ. On one hand he has Impis, which is scary when I only have Quechas and Chariots for defense. On the other, he's still on two cities! I'm not sure what to think of this--it could be a wonder (probably Pyramids), it could be an Impi rush (though 2 cities seems low for that), or it could be just bad play. The simplest answer is that he wants to Impi-rush someone, but is there a reason it has to be me? I don't think he's scouted my territory that much, and he's a lot closer to Serdoa than me.

[Fenn]

If DZ's still on 2 cities by T55 then he's probably not a huge threat to worry about, but I will say that your next two cities will take you closer to him, and you should get a couple Axes going so you're not an easy mark. C4 isn't such a long walk from DZ' s lands for Impis.

Oh, and apparently Moai statues are mistakenly set at just 100 hammers in this version of RtR, so you could build them quite early if you wanted. Of course the low coast also makes them easier to build in a hammer-poor island city if you want to go that route.

[Cheater Hater]

If DZ's still on 2 cities by T55 then he's probably not a huge threat to worry about, but I will say that your next two cities will take you closer to him, and you should get a couple Axes going so you're not an easy mark. C4 isn't such a long walk from DZ' s lands for Impis.

Oh, and apparently Moai statues are mistakenly set at just 100 hammers in this version of RtR, so you could build them quite early if you wanted. Of course the low coast also makes them easier to build in a hammer-poor island city if you want to go that route.

DZ just founded his 3rd city, so he isn't quite as far behind--I do need some Axes still.

Yeah, I've been following the Moai bug in the RtR forum--is it still doubled by stone (since it's only a National Wonder) or only 50%? I have no clue where I'd put it though--I haven't seen any close islands, or any islands at all (though I haven't looked very hard), and there aren't any hammer-poor sites on the mainland (mainly since there are a million forests). In that case, do I want to just put it in the place with the most water tiles (maybe the SE F in the floodplains ice) or save it until I do see an island somewhere?

On a side note, that bug being discovered means someone probably has Sailing; I wasn't planning on GL, but that's another strike against it.

Edit: @GJ, I just settled my 4th city this turn--it's probably a little confusing, since my C# notes are one behind my city count

[Cheater Hater]

T60 feels like a good time to do a report, and since I don't have to redo my micro plan this time, I can actually get to all the foreign stuff (and there's interesting news on that front). Still, let's start with a check at the capital area:


I finally have copper connected! Still, my first Axes aren't coming out for a bit, since I want to finish the Chariots I currently am building first, and then my cities have other priorities. My Terrace in Cuzco also was sped up a turn (though at the expense of a couple turns working the cottage), which means HG could be sped up a turn as well. However, I'm wondering how greedy I can get--can I actually settle C6 before finishing HG? Obviously there are a lot of problems with that plan, not the least of which I still need Currency before I completely crash my economy. I'd also probably be building the C6 Settler out of Cuzco itself, which means the timing would be a lot more difficult. At this point I wish I knew how many people could possibly have Math (aka looking for 12 point increases in CivStats), but I'd need to be tracking that from the beginning

Next, let's look at something I've neglected for way too many turns: my scouting.


As you can see, my scout has started moving west, and I'm finding lots of new neighbors. The northern red is ReallyEvilMuffin, and has really been expanding (up to 5 cities now, while other neighbors have only 3). There's also that southern red-orangish border, and while I don't have contact yet (I will next turn), I think it's taotau (though it could be Grimace; probably not AT or Molach unless I really can't tell colors apart). Let's see how many of my neighbors know each other:


Nothing that unexpected, DZ and Elkad know each side, far west and east don't know each other...oh, and we have WAR!


This is new to me; the declaration happened last turn but I'm not sure if it was before or after I played. This is obviously good for me, as it gives me the freedom to expand and chase wonders, and not need much more than a skeleton military in the short term. Let's check all the graphs and see how this war will go:








Elkad and DZ are pretty even in power, so this doesn't seem like the best decision for Elkad--I'm not complaining though

[Fenn]

Waiting for C6 to build the HG is starting to push it imo, especially if we assume that most players have Stone nearby. Beyond the foodhammer cost of the Settler you have to take into account the worker turns needed to road to it, camp its Deer (which will take longer due to Tundra) and chop out at least a Terrace. Those worker actions might be in higher demand for eg chopping out the Gardens or improving tiles for your cities so they can take full advantage of their increased population.

Not sure if Moai is doubled by Stone or not. My first instinct is to put it at C6, which has lots of coast (inc a lake and a Whales), several forests but relatively poor land tiles.

Elkad vs. Donovan could be an opportunistic strike - their power being so even and Donovan having Impis makes me doubt that Elkad is committing to an Axe rush or something. Just watch out for sudden Power dips, I guess.

[Cheater Hater]

Waiting for C6 to build the HG is starting to push it imo, especially if we assume that most players have Stone nearby. Beyond the foodhammer cost of the Settler you have to take into account the worker turns needed to road to it, camp its Deer (which will take longer due to Tundra) and chop out at least a Terrace. Those worker actions might be in higher demand for eg chopping out the Gardens or improving tiles for your cities so they can take full advantage of their increased population.

Not sure if Moai is doubled by Stone or not. My first instinct is to put it at C6, which has lots of coast (inc a lake and a Whales), several forests but relatively poor land tiles.

Elkad vs. Donovan could be an opportunistic strike - their power being so even and Donovan having Impis makes me doubt that Elkad is committing to an Axe rush or something. Just watch out for sudden Power dips, I guess.

No one said I actually needed to have all the infrastructure in place at C6 by the time HG completes--heck, the only real improvement it needs right away is the seafood (though again, the Work Boat would come out of Cuzco). At the very least, I'll get out the Aquaduct and see where I stand.

Moai in C6 could work--C5 actually has more coast though, and the C/F in the SE corner has even more

[Cheater Hater]

THE LURKERS HAVE SPOKEN!

TBS is putting together an overview post for T65, but it's probably a good idea for me to report anyway. For example, my worker micro sheet has been getting a little long in the tooth, and I even tried to update it a bit three turns ago, but now I finally have a decent plan, at least for the short term. Unfortunately, it's not nearly as good as I want it to be (it doesn't even go fully through T70), and the reasons will become apparent as the report commences:


Not that much new here--C3 (Ollantaytambo, or Olly) finished its Terrace and needs new builds (Axes I guess? At least until it grows to size 3, then maybe a Worker?), MP has started its Settler, and TW will start its Settler next turn (I decided not to whip the Worker, and thus things are a bit slower than planned, but nothing major). Of course, the thing you all want to know about is the start of Hanging Gardens in Cuzco, and that is what a lot of my micro has been focused on. Here's my domestic advisor so you can follow along as I detail my thoughts:


Right now Cuzco has 10 raw HPT, and it'll be getting 4 more next turn (growing onto a mine+the ivory camp finishing). It has 255 hammers left (170 raw hammers), so without chops it'll finish on T79. Right now I have at least two chops planned (the tile 1S of the ivory, and one other I haven't decided on yet), which means it'll finish on T74. However, the one major wrinkle is that I've been considering pushing out one more Settler before HG completes. I considered just following my city plan for this (thus pushing out to C6), but I don't have the support to protect that far site (both military and Workers). Instead, I was considering one of my filler cities by Cuzco, most likely the eastern one. However, that city is filler for a reason, especially if I don't have the Worker turns to chop out the Terrace and don't want to stop growing Cuzco (which isn't likely at all, especially since any realistic way to get the Settler out involves a 2-pop whip). I have a couple turns to make a final decision on this at least; I probably wouldn't switch to the Settler until the first chop comes in at the earliest, especially since I think I might be able to grow to size 7 beforehand (BTW, what is the rate the "no military" unhappiness increments at?). The important question is whether it's worth settling an extra filler city, just to get the extra pop off HG?

Other than that, we have some more scouting information:




This continent has an interesting design, lots of big seas and not many peninsulas (just the one I'm on so far). The more interesting thing is that Elkad's somehow gotten a Work Boat all the way to my borders. Remember, Elkad is near the northern border of the continent, which means not only that there's a reasonable path to the western border of the continent (and thus, taotao is probably the western border of the continent), no one else has settled on the coast and blocked it off--unless that was the reason for the Elkad-DZ war


Here's all my neighbors--notice how the Elkad-DZ war has ended (and was probably just an open borders declaration--random mod suggestion: add a second type of Open Borders for non-militarized units only, and not trade, and move it back to Writing). If any of my neighbors doesn't report, just ask and I'll give you want I can.

I would put graphs here, but I lost Elkad's this turn--instead I'll just leave the demos unless someone specifically asks for them:

[Cheater Hater]

Quick update with HG numbers: Cuzco grows in 3 turns if I work the Silk over a mine, which isn't a huge loss (since TW still works that mine--heck, its Settler is only 5 turns away not counting the chop, so it looks like that might only be a 1-pop whip). If I did that, I could possibly give all the mines to Cuzco for a turn, swap to the Settler and put 20 food-hammers into it, then 2-pop whip it right away! HG would still get two whips still (ivory+the tile 1W of the ivory I think?), HG will come out at a reasonable time (again, Pyramids haven't fallen yet), and heck, C4 and C5 might even be Size 2 at that point! Again, the biggest problems come from where to put the extra Settler (a relatively bad filler city, or the crazy stretch to C6) as well as making sure I can get to Currency (8 turns away at the current rate, I think, so 4 turns will remain when I start settling more cities).

Again, any thoughts/sanity checks are welcome. In particular, how bad is it if I do end up losing HG under the 7 city plan?

[Fenn]

Losing HG under that plan wouldn't be too disastrous, having seven cities at this stage of the game seems quite reasonable and if you do lose the race the failgold will at least let you reach Currency sooner. Biggest problem would be that Cuzco would be down 4 pop, but you are Charismatic (+2 happy resources) so that might not be a huge issue.

[Cheater Hater]

Losing HG under that plan wouldn't be too disastrous, having seven cities at this stage of the game seems quite reasonable and if you do lose the race the failgold will at least let you reach Currency sooner. Biggest problem would be that Cuzco would be down 4 pop, but you are Charismatic (+2 happy resources) so that might not be a huge issue.

Why would Cuzco be down 4 pop? It would be just the two from the 2-pop whip, and it'll regrow a lot as well.

While I'm here, I might as well do a mini-report--with a giant picture!


(I got a new monitor, so I'm now running everything at 1080p finally--let me know if anything's unreadable and I can try to fix it)
On the "get to Currency before I crash" plan, since the whip in TW would only save one turn (though I have to check things once I steal all of TW's mines), I'm thinking it's not worth it, and I'll end up settling C5 on T71 instead, same as C4.

That statement feels like an endorsement of the new Settler, but what about stretching to the C6 site? I did a bit of calculation (though I'm not trusting my micro as much, as it feels like the first chop was a bit slower than I thought it was--I think the micro sheet is right though), and the new Settler comes out on T72, meaning it would settle the filler city on T74 and C6 on T76. As for HG under this plan, the two chops come in on T73 and T74, so the timing could be tight on that--I need to check the specific numbers on that this turn.