Revision of the spell selection system

[Nelphine]

I don't agree that lots of commons for high book picks is a problem. The problem is being able to base entire strategies on a low number of commons, making you only need a few books to fulfill your strategy. So the problem is being able to get enough commons with a low number of books.

Having lots of commons with high books isn't an issue (especially with the changes to sell treasure you have described) because you give up retorts for that anyway.

[zitro1987]

Before doing anything else, I'd like to list the goals to make sure I understand what we want :
-High enough availability of starting commons to not have significant effects on the AI.  Little to no change on starting commons from books 1-6
-Less availability of commons spells in the early game for high number of books   So we cap starting commons to about 5 or 6 spells
-High book counts in one realm should be more desirable Spell availability counts [and research bonus] should climb heavily on high book counts
-Picking multiple realms should not be any less desirable than now, ideally equally desirable to picking a high number of books in one realm 1-4 book perks should be reasonably useful, similar to now
-Picking many retorts should be less desirable Again, benefits of higher books, probably a 'Specialist' requirement of many books in a realm
-Cost reductions and research boosts for books need to start later and generally be weighted towards more research and less cost reduction More significant despite weakening cost reductions, blends well with very rare access. This is sounding really good so far.
-Influence of luck needs to be lower to make more strategies playable and to generally reward skill and strategy over luck. No random initial spell idea
-Influence of luck needs to be high to not result in loss of replayability The most powerful 'overland' common spells may have to have weak points.

Thank you, it's a lot easier knowing what your goals and preferences are (it's your mod after all). I'll give it a try keeping all of these points in mind. 
1 book - 3/1/0/0 - common access - 0 starting spells    
2 books - 4/2/1/0 - uncommon access - 1 starting spell   (note - this is slightly weaker than now, was too good with +4 spells on top of other major benefits. Also, we need more + spell bonuses in higher books per your preferences)
3 books - 4/3/2/1 - rare access - 2 starting spells (note - this is slightly weaker than now, was too good with +4 spells, Also, we need more + spell bonuses in higher books)
4 books - 5/4/3/2 - very rare access - 3 starting spells (note - while possibly the best 1-book bonus, still weaker than now, 4 books used to give 7 common. If still concerned, drop uncommon to 3 or very rare to 1) 
5 books - 6/5/4/3 - 4 starting spells 
6 books - 7/6/5/4 - 5 starting spell cap
7 books - 9/8/6/5 or 10/7/6/5 - still 5 starting spells  (the lack of initial spell bonus and cost/research bonus translate to +6 spells instead of usual +4) 
8 books - 10/9/7/6 - start 2% cost / 10% research bonus  - **allow specialist with 8 books**   
- only +3 spells, but major research bonus helps with rarer spells and allows specialist. 
- Having specialist require 8 books makes good sense, severely limits retort-stacking strategy from catwalk. **Picking Many Retorts Should Be Less Desireable**
9 books - 10/10/8/8 or 10/10/9/7 - The research bonus now at +20% is decent, almost a half sagemaster, 9 books of any realm start giving good initial power
10 books - all spells
-6% spell cost, +30% research is better than original, balancing out just 5 starting common
-Remember than with many books comes great starting power. 


Another topic is give points to certain bonuses - a pick value should be roughly 24-28 points
*Starting spell = 5 for first, 4 for second-fifth
*Access to trading/treasure = 5 common, 6 v rare, 7 uncommon/rare (the middle spells are easiest to trade/treasure, v rare the hardest but can be more rewarding)
*Spell availability = 4 per common, 5 for others
*Start of specialist retort = 2
*cost reduction = 2 per 2%
*research bonus = about 2 per 3.33%

My proposal, covering all Seravy's points:
1 book - 22 points
2 book - 26 points
3 book - 26 points
4 book - 29 points  
5 & 6 book = both 23 points      (mmm a bit low, maybe we need +2 starting common here ... though that would leave 7 starting common, contradicting one of Seravy/forum's wishes of fewer starting commons)
7 book - 28 points
8 book - 29 points
9 book - 28 points
10 book - 28 points



Now how is our current system? Is it that bad? (let's assume 3 points for initial 6th-8th commons, 2 points for 9th)
1 book - 22 points
2 book - 30 points
3 book - 30 points
4 book - 29 points
5 book - 27 points
6 book - 27 points
7 book - 31 points (not surprised, and the perfect number to combine with retort-stacking)
8 book - 27 points
9 book - 17 points (yes, it is a poor choice)
10 book - 31 points (also a clear winner, except that having 10 books limit retort stacking too much, so no problem here)

[Nelphine]

While I like the idea of assigning points to things, I think you need to assign points to rerorts too and see how they compare. We need books to be roughly balanced with retorts. For instance, sage master would be 20 points, but it applies to all realms, so probably 50% better, or 30 points, plus it also gives a flat starting bonus, probably 32 points total.

Similarly specialist, which I consider one of the best retorts is worth about 24 points on that scale, plus making your spells twice as hard to dispel - about equal to not only having access to an uncommon spell, but having it auto cast and undispelable - probably another 10 or so points. Total 34ish points?

Considering I would take specialist in a heartbeat over sagemaster I'd say the point scale is slightly off. So I'd suggest cost reduction is worth 3 points per 2% not 2, which increases the value of specialist to 41ish, but would also increase the value of some books too.

Then if we apply this to spellweaver, this is 50% bonus to casting. That's equivalent to a 33% cost reduction, but it doesn't apply to combat. For me (since the majority of my spells are overland), that means around a 25% cost reduction. Similarly you get a 33% increase in power, which if applied purely to mana, is equivalent to another 25% cost reduction. So 50% cost reduction for 2 picks, which is 75 points, or 37.5 per pick.

Just to give you some comparable numbers.

Note: I consider the numbers im proposing to match my in game experience that books are good (especially certain numbers of books, like 4), but retorts are simply better. Especially if you accept as many people do that non spell based retorts are generally better than spell based retorts (which would put things like alchemy or warlord in the 40-45 point range (per pick) on your scale, almost 20 above most of your proposed book values).

[Seravy]

All right, it's about time to start working on this. (it'll probably take a while)

C/U/R/VR , C Starting/ U Guaranteed/ U Guaranteed turn 1 research/ R Guaranteed, other effects

Book 01 : 3/1/0/0, 0/0/0/0, Find/Trade common
Book 02 : 3/2/1/0, 1/0/0/0, Find/Trade Uncommon
Book 03 : 4/3/2/1, 2/0/0/0, Find/Trade Rare
Book 04 : 5/4/3/2, 3/0/0/0, Find/Trade Very Rare
Book 05 : 6/5/4/3, 4/1/0/0,
Book 06 : 7/6/5/4, 5/1/0/1,
Book 07 : 10/7/6/5, 5/2/0/1,
Book 08 : 10/10/7/6, 5/0/2/1,
Book 09 : 10/10/10/7, 5/0/2/0, +5% research, -5% casting cost
Book 10 : 10/10/10/10, 5/0/2/0, +10% research, -10% casting cost

Each book offers a unique feature, making them all a significant, valuable pick :
book 1 to 4 offer the ability to find and trade spells of each rarity. Book 5 offers a guaranteed uncommon. Book 6 offers a guaranteed rare. Book 7 offers knowing every common and a second guaranteed uncommon. Book 8 offers all uncommons and the ability to have 2 of those appear on the research page on turn 1. Book 9 offers all rares and a cost/research bonus. Book 10 offers all very rares and more cost/research bonus.


Once the system is implemented, we can tweak the numbers any way we want relatively easily.

[zitro1987]

All right, it's about time to start working on this. (it'll probably take a while)

C/U/R/VR , C Starting/ U Guaranteed/ U Guaranteed turn 1 research/ R Guaranteed, other effects

Book 01 : 3/1/0/0, 0/0/0/0, Find/Trade common
Book 02 : 3/2/1/0, 1/0/0/0, Find/Trade Uncommon
Book 03 : 4/3/2/1, 2/0/0/0, Find/Trade Rare
Book 04 : 5/4/3/2, 3/0/0/0, Find/Trade Very Rare
Book 05 : 6/5/4/3, 4/1/0/0,
Book 06 : 7/6/5/4, 5/1/0/1,
Book 07 : 10/7/6/5, 5/2/0/1,
Book 08 : 10/10/7/6, 5/0/2/1,
Book 09 : 10/10/10/7, 5/0/2/0, +5% research, -5% casting cost
Book 10 : 10/10/10/10, 5/0/2/0, +10% research, -10% casting cost

Each book offers a unique feature, making them all a significant, valuable pick :
book 1 to 4 offer the ability to find and trade spells of each rarity. Book 5 offers a guaranteed uncommon. Book 6 offers a guaranteed rare. Book 7 offers knowing every common and a second guaranteed uncommon. Book 8 offers all uncommons and the ability to have 2 of those appear on the research page on turn 1. Book 9 offers all rares and a cost/research bonus. Book 10 offers all very rares and more cost/research bonus.


Once the system is implemented, we can tweak the numbers any way we want relatively easily.

Good job! You managed to balance 10 book choices pretty well, especially around the 3-9 book range. I find the new idea of 'uncommon at turn 1' very interesting.

These books are fairly weak choices (about 15-20% fewer 'points' in my head), but not to the point of being useless choices
1-2 book - as starting books, these might slightly go against secondary-realm strategies. They are otherwise pretty good to get as lair/node rewards
10 book - can you have 6 starting common and 3 uncommon researchable at turn 1? It is much more advantageous to have an added retort for early-game advantage (which affects late game) than what this offers.

The research bonus of just 5% is a bit weak for the high research costs of some rares and very rares, doesn't stack as favorably as cost reductions when you have specialist. Not a major concern though. I appear a bit more concerned that 10 books could have a 3rd uncommon researchable at turn 1 (with an added starting common) - it simply needs a stronger early game incentive and falls a bit flat.

[Seravy]

Done, ready for testing : http://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showt...p?tid=8722