American Politics Discussion Thread

[Jowy]

T-Hawk would you support Trump if he steals the election, either by stopping the vote count before mail-in ballots (largely democrat votes) are counted, or by declaring the election results illegitimate if he loses on election day?

[Mjmd]

There are plenty of straightforward points to make that don't require misinterpretation or exaggeration; we should focus on those.

This, 1000 times this.

[T-hawk]

T-Hawk would you support Trump if he steals the election, either by stopping the vote count before mail-in ballots (largely democrat votes) are counted, or by declaring the election results illegitimate if he loses on election day?

The problem here is that Democrats are going to fling that charge of "stealing" against any number of legitimate behaviors, and CNN will eagerly feed it to everyone. Like if a state's own law prescribes a deadline for counting that the Democrats then want to continue past.  The media is already trying to mislead the public into thinking the Supreme Court appointment was somehow illegitimate despite actually following Constitutional procedure.

I would not support Trump if he actually "steals the election", but we'd never agree on what constitutes "stealing".

[Jowy]

T-Hawk would you support Trump if he steals the election, either by stopping the vote count before mail-in ballots (largely democrat votes) are counted, or by declaring the election results illegitimate if he loses on election day?

The problem here is that Democrats are going to fling that charge of "stealing" against any number of legitimate behaviors, and CNN will eagerly feed it to everyone.  Like if a state's own law prescribes a deadline for counting that the Democrats then want to continue past.  The media is already trying to mislead the public into thinking the Supreme Court appointment was somehow illegitimate despite actually following Constitutional procedure.

I would not support Trump if he actually "steals the election", but we'd never agree on what constitutes "stealing".

I've noticed at least two narratives Trump has been pushing:
That mail-in ballots should not be counted at all (this is what I think they go for if Trump loses on election day)
That only the results on the election day should decide the election (and this is what they go for if Trump wins on election day)
Would either of those count as stealing to you?

I'm basing those narratives on what Trump's been saying: Talking about how mail-in ballots cannot be trusted at all, how boxes of Trump ballots are found in ditches etc. Sabotaging the mail service to delay votes coming in, and emphasizing to Republican voters to vote in-person on election day.

The Supreme Court appointment isn't illegitimate, but it is absolutely scummy due to the timing. Ignoring Covid stimulus in favor of cramming in their guy before the election so that, as far as I understand, the Supreme Court can tip the scales in Trump's favor.

“I think this will end up in the supreme court,” Trump told reporters, referring to the election. “And I think it’s very important that we have nine justices. I think having a 4-4 situation is not a good situation.”

Granted I expect Dems to combat this by packing the court if they win the presidency, which is why Biden refuses to answer questions about it.

[MJW (ya that one)]

DEMs won't pack courts because GOP can then pack when they get power again. It would effectively delete the courts from the USA political system; which would massively benefit GOP because they are the anti-cosmopolitan party while courts are cosmopolitan. It's better to just take it. They are pretending that they will pack the courts to pump up their base.

Now when GOP loses Texas they wouldn't be able to threaten to pack the courts again which will free up DEMs. I guess this will happen in 2028 (or DEMs fall just short but it doesn't matter because they win NC, GA and AZ in a walkover). If I had to guess what will happen, Biden will sit on his ass and whine for 8 years and then DEMs shut out the GOP from the political system in 2028. DEMs won in 2000 when GWB couldn't get the job done with latinos, it just takes forever to show it.

COVID had no chance due to being too close to election anyway.

[T-hawk]

I've noticed at least two narratives Trump has been pushing:
That mail-in ballots should not be counted at all (this is what I think they go for if Trump loses on election day)
That only the results on the election day should decide the election (and this is what they go for if Trump wins on election day)
Would either of those count as stealing to you?

If he actually manages to abrogate state or federal law in one of those scenarios, then yes. I don't believe that will happen, and the burden of proof is on the accuser if you think it did. Trump pushing a narrative in a campaign speech is enormously different from what actually happens in a legal context. Also whatever a state or locality might do is enormously different than whatever Trump might do.

Trump may contest the election results by legal means and court decisions. That is not stealing, no matter how much CNN will try to outrage you otherwise. And of course Biden will do exactly the same if it's close enough that it might matter.

[Jowy]

We don't get CNN here in Finland Thanks for answering.

I suppose since Republicans already perform voter suppression, it isn't really going to make a Republican voter bat an eye if they find other ways to undermine democracy.

[T-hawk]

"Undermine democracy" is the same key phrase there just as "stealing", an unspecific and untestable phrase designed to slant the discussion in your view. There are many ways that apparent votes would not be counted, in full accordance with legal procedures, anything involving matching it up with registration or residence information or signatures or whatever else is involved. CNN and the opposition will call any uncounted vote "suppression" and "undermining democracy", completely ignoring the reality that this standard of safeguards is necessary to prevent wider and organized fraud.

Would you consider it "stealing" the election or "undermining democracy" or "voter suppression" if Trump won by a margin of votes that were not counted in accordance with lawful procedures?

As for CNN, I mean its effect on American viewers of course, and whatever spread it does have internationally. I remembered you weren't American, but somehow remembered Swedish for some reason, which saying might outrage you even more

[Jowy]

Should people still be allowed to own slaves? It was lawful at some point. Does that make it right? No. "Accordance to laws" doesn't mean it's right or that it's not anti-democratic.

https://now.org/resource/voter-suppressi...-part-one/

Especially this part pertains to your post:

Restrictive Laws are Politically Motivated

Restrictive voting laws are being proposed by Republicans because their Party benefits from them.  As one Republican consultant stated, “A lot of us are campaign officials — or campaign professionals — and we want to do everything we can to help our side. Sometimes we think that’s voter ID, sometimes we think that’s longer lines — whatever it may be.”

The former chair of the Florida Republican Party, Jim Greer, admitted that a law shortening the early voting period was deliberately designed to suppress voting among groups that tend to support Democratic candidates.  Greer told the Palm Beach Post in late November, 2012, “The Republican Party, the strategists, the consultants, they firmly believe that early voting is bad for Republican Party candidates.”

[Charriu]

"Undermine democracy" is the same key phrase there just as "stealing", an unspecific and untestable phrase designed to slant the discussion in your view.  There are many ways that apparent votes would not be counted, in full accordance with legal procedures, anything involving matching it up with registration or residence information or signatures or whatever else is involved.  CNN and the opposition will call any uncounted vote "suppression" and "undermining democracy", completely ignoring the reality that this standard of safeguards is necessary to prevent wider and organized fraud.

Would you consider it "stealing" the election or "undermining democracy" or "voter suppression" if Trump won by a margin of votes that were not counted in accordance with lawful procedures?

As for CNN, I mean its effect on American viewers of course, and whatever spread it does have internationally.  I remembered you weren't American, but somehow remembered Swedish for some reason, which saying might outrage you even more

Well there are multiple factors that fall under the "Undermine democracy". Like

• Requiring everybody to register for each election. Most other democracies register every eligible voter automatically.
  
• Making this registration process harder
  
• Reducing polling places
  
• Gerrymandering
  
• Saying that voting by mail is a huge cause for fraud, which it isn't. (I already said this before, but voting digital is a much bigger risk)
  
• etc.
  

All of these are things that are happening and undermine the trust in democracy.

EDIT: Also make your election day an official holiday or do it on the weekend. On a Tuesday is ridicules.