[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[pocketbeetle]

Could we get an update on the size of your military. I'm particularly interested in if you play to keep any stonewarden's around as medics and the status of the lone adept you have running around. Are you on track to give him rust when the entropy mana from the ashen veil shrine comes in?

Also in terms of long term tech potential, you are planning on going arcane lore are you going to build Hemah straight away or will he take some time to kick in? Does Heroic epic effect the production of hero and or arcane units? When are you going to going to switch over to octopus overlords?

Hey Darkmantle, =)

Some (brief) answers to your questions, bear in mind I'm writing this with foreknowledge of the next turn and things are due to change a bit:

• I'm on around 15 CAs at the moment, which is nowhere near enough.
  
• Yes, that Stonewarden I built in Kwythellar last turn will be a permanent medic (hence wanted him with 6xp), and I will definitely look to build a couple more.
  Ideally I'd love to stockpile a ton before switching religion.
  
• Adept is at 10xp with Mobility promotion and Sun/Spirit/Water I spells.
  I'm not concerned about what experience he has/the timing of the AV shrine so long as it gets built before Bob ever considers attacking.
  I can always just build a new 6 xp Adept anytime I want, and add Entropy I to that.
  
• Current plan is Divination -> Elementalism -> Alteration -> Sorcery -> Arcane Lore.
  However all things change.
  
• Hemah, I'd love to build him as early as possible.
  The Hero promotion obviously give +1xp /turn, so the incentive is there.
  As with the AV shrine, so long as I have Hemah up by the time Vampires come knocking at my door, I'm happy.
  
• Arcane and Hero units all count as military, so the HE affects them.
  Hemah is 120h (compare vs 80h CA), so yes, Kwythellar can virtually knock him out in one turn.
  
• Not sure about OO.
  It's most likely to happen either at the end of this GA to avoid the turn of revolt, or when I research Arcane Lore.
  

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 161:

Divination splashscreen on loading the save, yippee!



It enables two wonders, the ToD of course and the Shrine of Sirona.
The latter is a pretty naff wonder that allows you to heal one unit per turn in the field.
Unfortunately that ‘heal’ only repairs a fixed amount of damage, ie doesn’t return a unit to full health in only one cast.
It also counts as the “one spell per unit per turn” so spellcasters beware.
Onwards to Elementalism!

Iskender was teching Empyrean like he said, and founded it even faster than I expected:



So that’s Empyrean down.

Just a quick note here: I shouldn’t have let this religion go.
I could have researched it twenty turns ago; it was merely slackness that I let it slip through my grasp.
Of the remaining religions to be founded (Order and CoE) only CoE attracts my interest.
Order can cause nasty problems if it’s present in the same city as AV (bad events start cropping up) and since I don’t have the inclination to start using Inquisition, I’m going to put it to one side for the time being.
CoE on the other hand has some nice benefits including Gibbon Goetia (another excellent caster), Shadowriders (more horsies yay!) and the shrine Nox Noctis (makes units invisible when inside cultural borders).
Realistically the only people that can take it from me are Iskender and Bob, I’ll be keeping an eye on them, particularly if Iskender does another “build up a mountain of gold” trick.

Iskender invited me to send a hawk South, so that’s just what I’ll do!



It finds the following:



Sareln’s city is defended by one hunter only.
That Hill Giant in the bottom of the shot has Combat II, so clearly someone’s been feeding him.

Over near Lave, it’s time to explore that cursed lair, as promised all the CAs are in place.



Over the next arduous couple of days the five Centaurs scoured the haunted dungeon, peering around each corner, nervously checking each passageway, swishing tails illuminated by the flickering torchlight. Eventually they reached a large chamber with a vaulted ceiling.
In the center, it waited for them.

Many times have the party of five been given the opportunity to describe the trials they overcame, the horrors they encountered.
Many times have the taverns fallen silent in a hush of expectation as one of them was called to recite their tale.
Each time the hopeful listeners have been denied.

All that is known is that of the five, it was Mimas who clopped bravely forth to face the final test.
Joyful Mimas, always ready with a joke, always willing to give a Ratchild a ride, that Mimas is no longer.
Sullen he is now, with a wound that continues to fester despite the attention of the best Stonewardens in the kingdom,.
Using a headband to cover his disfigurement, Mimas gives testament to a day when things went wrong for the Kuriotates.
He acts as a stark warning for those daring and foolhardy enough to follow in his hoofprints and challenge… the Gods of the RNG.

…

My unit got scratched by a Goblin.


At Zaonce, Silent Bob completed the road and moved back to the Northern Sugar tile.

If you look back to the turnlog screenshot, you’ll notice a jungle grew near Riedquat this turn.
Guess which tile that was?
Yup, the Sugar tile which I cleared before going off to build that road.
Note to self: when improving jungle tiles, don’t bother chopping first, just go straight to (plantationing).



With that road built, I moved Curly 1SE.
I’m hoping Sareln is a) paying attention and b) doesn’t know the rules about HN units and roads in neutral territory.
With luck, he’ll take the hint and bugger off.
If not, I may have to bring in heavier persuasion.

Tech screen confirms Bob has Feudalism, to which my reaction is crapcrapcrapcrapcrap.

While in Kwythellar, I have a decision to make.



Kwythellar can pump out a Centaur every turn normally, but in a GA it builds one and then some. (Remember that comment about quick speed not being good for the Kurios? Here’s an example why.)
So this turn I essentially have 125 free hammers to throw at something non-military, before I start wasting hammers due to overflow rules.

Two choices: build the Guild of the Nine or the Shrine of Sirona.
The Guild of the Nine is a priority wonder that I intended to build in Caledor, the Shrine of Sirona is, as already covered, a naff wonder which I don’t entirely rate.

Unfortunately, Selrahc is still supplying me Marble - he should’ve cancelled it two turns ago.
I can’t cancel it (tried), but neither do I fancy reminding him at this point.
Because that Marble turns my 125h into 250h, and I know it’s wrong, I know I’m being stupid, but I just can’t resist me a doubled wonder.

Shrine of Sirona it is.



Stonewarden completed in Avelorn who will head over to Illian lands soon.

.

[pocketbeetle]

Diplo:

First off, let’s send that screenshot over to Iskender and let him see the good news.

Hi Iskender,

Good choice of city, here's what the hawk saw:

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/2507/...t0003v.jpg

There's one hunter in there, that's it.
I guess they don't think you're a threat.

Also - I promise that Giant with Combat promotions in the South isn't mine!
If you want me to send a unit down there to kill it, just let me know.

Kind Regards,
Pb, Scouting Boy-King

That should provoke a positive reaction!

OK, thanks!

…

Okay, getting a little concerned now.
In fact, scratch that, I’m downright concerned.

I know when people are acting flakey and having second thoughts, (trust me I have plenty experience with it).
And Iskender, well he’s acting a little flakey.

No: “Ok, cool that opens the way for your plan them, I’m happy to provoke the Calabim and start a war so long as you commit to fully defending me.”
No: “Okay, well we need to work out the details, but I want that city and I’m willing work with you against the Calabim so long as I get it”
Not even: “Fine, let’s meet up on chat again to discuss what to do from here.”

Two words, that’s it.
It was odd enough to make me go through every single message Iskender and I have ever exchanged.
He has never given me such a short reply, ever.
It’s always been ‘acknowledgement + clarification’, here are some examples:

Ok, thanks for the heads up. My settler will be on the site next turn.

I could have it in the BFC, but the city would be in an extremely poor location, probably not worth it.

All right, thanks for the chopping. I'll re-offer cease fire next turn.

And this isn’t some minor city-settling or chopping matter we’re talking about here, this could be a game defining alliance.

So I’m not sure – I picked up this hesitation in our last chat and that screenshot doesn’t seem to have improved things.
I think either he needs more convincing (there’s not much more I can offer… or maybe I need to be more forceful? Maybe he’s one of these people that feels the need for others to make the decision for him?
I really don’t know. I waited another day or two with no word from the Hippus, and then went and chased Iskender…again.

But while I was crouching on Gchat, waiting to pounce on an unsuspecting Hippie, my lovely Illian neighbour came calling!

(12:19:58 PM) pocketbeetle: Interested in the most recent FFH2 PBEM1 gossip?
(12:20:25 PM) Selrahc: Heh, sure. I was going to suggest the same thing.
(12:20:29 PM) Selrahc: What have you heard?
(12:20:40 PM) pocketbeetle: weeeel
(12:20:52 PM) pocketbeetle: three days ago, Cull told me he has a nap with bob until T200
(12:21:07 PM) pocketbeetle: I was warning him about Bob possibly thinking of attacking
(12:21:07 PM) Selrahc: Ick. Alright.
<<snip irrelevant fussing with Gchat settings>>
(12:23:11 PM) pocketbeetle: and then
(12:23:24 PM) pocketbeetle: Cull sent me an email yesterday, telling me he has now extended that nap
(12:23:40 PM) pocketbeetle: I'm in the process of asking for how long, but obviously it's longer than T200
(12:23:49 PM) pocketbeetle: And he sounded pretty laid back
(12:23:57 PM) Selrahc: Yeah.
(12:24:20 PM) Selrahc: Well if Bob isn't going to attack him.. he isn't in much threat.
(12:24:33 PM) Selrahc: I'm not eager to lose the mana he's giving me.
(12:24:50 PM) pocketbeetle: Your nap with culls runs out soon doesnt it? Ah okay, yup true
(12:24:57 PM) pocketbeetle: Has he asked for an extension at all?
(12:25:03 PM) Selrahc: No.
(12:25:14 PM) pocketbeetle: okay,
(12:25:15 PM) pocketbeetle: So then I chatted with Iskender
(12:25:32 PM) pocketbeetle: They've still got the T200 nap, but Iskender says Bob has approached him looking to extend it
(12:25:48 PM) pocketbeetle: And apparently Bob now has Feudalism as of this turn
(12:26:00 PM) pocketbeetle: Sooo. Not Sareln. Not Cull. Probably not Iskender
(12:26:06 PM) pocketbeetle:
(12:26:26 PM) Selrahc: Yeah.. thing is.. Bob's been on me asking for trade agreements.
(12:26:33 PM) pocketbeetle: Really. Oh dear for me
(12:26:50 PM) pocketbeetle: What sort of trades?
(12:27:11 PM) Selrahc: Open borders, fur for wines/gold. Something like that.
(12:27:52 PM) Selrahc: We haven't agreed to anything yet. we were trying to work out why we don't currently have a trade route first.
(12:28:23 PM) Selrahc: I'd actually consider the possibility that Bob isn't planning on using his vampires yet.
(12:28:33 PM) pocketbeetle: Well, obviously I can't tell you what to do. But if you're getting enough trade routes from my settlements (surely?) then I'd appreciate you not boosting Bob's research rate any more than necessary via trade routes
(12:28:35 PM) Selrahc: But waiting until he has a truly devastating army of them.
(12:28:56 PM) Selrahc: I'm actually maxing out foreign trade routes right now.
(12:29:12 PM) Selrahc: Due to discovering trade and adopting foreign trade.
(12:29:16 PM) pocketbeetle: Good, yeah I noticed
(12:29:28 PM) Selrahc: Hence the GNP going above 300 suddenly.
(12:29:54 PM) Selrahc: What happened to yours though? It's more or less doubled in the last ten turns!
(12:30:09 PM) pocketbeetle: As for Bob not attacking anyone. Comon dude. Did I mention he threatened me with war the other day?
(12:30:23 PM) pocketbeetle: I moved Vanilla Ice near his border
(12:30:30 PM) Selrahc: You think you're the target?
(12:31:03 PM) pocketbeetle: I think he's going to attack someone. I think we're the only two not covered by a NAP, and unless he's bluffing with the trade stuff, then yes I guess it's me
(12:31:15 PM) Selrahc: He'd have to make a deal with Iskender in that case to get access.
(12:31:20 PM) pocketbeetle: true
(12:31:28 PM) pocketbeetle: Although Zaonce is a bit exposed
(12:31:28 PM) Selrahc: I can guarantee you that I'll not let him use my lands to attack you.
(12:31:41 PM) pocketbeetle: Really? I appreciate that. It helps
(12:32:21 PM) Selrahc: No problem. I'm not looking to stab you in the back here.
(12:32:44 PM) Selrahc: I'll keep you updated if Bob comes looking for an alliance against you as well.
(12:33:07 PM) Selrahc: Oh, and speaking of which. You've got Iskender quite paranoid.
(12:33:18 PM) pocketbeetle: Thankyou. Do me a favour also, build a few extra units. That way, if he does come, then you can at least consider helping (you may choose not to, but at least you'll have the choice!)
(12:33:36 PM) pocketbeetle: Why so?
(12:33:41 PM) Selrahc: Skyships.
(12:33:46 PM) pocketbeetle: lol?
(12:34:26 PM) Selrahc: I can kind of see his point. They're really fast. But I would certainly be more scared of the vampires.
(12:34:44 PM) Selrahc: "I'm writing to ask what do you think about the prospect of Pb getting
Airships filled with commando troops able to fork cities in 10+ tile
radius, striking from above a peak or from the ocean. Do you think
there's a way to counter it? I'm sceptical.
(12:34:46 PM) Selrahc: "
(12:34:49 PM) pocketbeetle: Why on earth would I build skyships with raider units?
(12:34:51 PM) pocketbeetle: sec
(12:35:29 PM) pocketbeetle: well sure, but I'll still have to unload them, at which point just gank them
(12:35:45 PM) pocketbeetle: They're damn expensive hammerwise and at the nd of the tree also
(12:35:49 PM) Selrahc: Yeah.
(12:36:03 PM) Selrahc: On Erebus maps they're really good.
(12:36:10 PM) Selrahc: Not so sure on this one.
(12:36:14 PM) pocketbeetle: I always regarded them as novelty units, designed to let you complete a conquest victory if an AI is on another continent and all 4 megacities are landloakced
(12:36:18 PM) Selrahc: (Because they can hover over mountains)
(12:36:30 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah. Wish I could find a griffon to capture
(12:37:01 PM) Selrahc: Yeah, thats their purpose, but they are fairly fun units.
(12:37:08 PM) Selrahc: I don't really share Iskenders fear of them though.
(12:38:03 PM) pocketbeetle: How weird. I'll try and have another look at them, but I agree. I've only ever built 1 ever.
(12:38:31 PM) pocketbeetle: Do you mind if I ask Iskender about this, or would you prefer I pretend you've never said anything?
(12:38:37 PM) pocketbeetle: No probs if so
(12:38:44 PM) Selrahc: Hm.
(12:39:00 PM) Selrahc: Um.. I think I'd prefer if you not bring it up with him.
(12:39:31 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah sure
(12:39:56 PM) pocketbeetle: But my response anyway, is that they're Queen of th eline replacements, needing Astronomy which is a what? 8-10k beaker tech?
(12:40:11 PM) pocketbeetle: No way I'm spending that much on a continent map for some fun floaty things
(12:40:19 PM) Selrahc: Yeah.
(12:40:24 PM) Selrahc: I get that.
(12:40:42 PM) Selrahc: I need to think up a response, but I'll do my best to put that acorss.
(12:40:52 PM) Selrahc: *across
(12:40:57 PM) pocketbeetle: as for my GNP, I got envious of your third GA and decided I wanted one too
(12:41:24 PM) pocketbeetle: Fired off a one man GA, think you used your GSci for the same yup?
(12:41:32 PM) Selrahc: Right. Fair enough. I guess that explains it.
(12:41:32 PM) Selrahc: Yeah
(12:41:45 PM) pocketbeetle: With Bob sabre rattling, I thought it best to knock off a few more techs
(12:41:54 PM) Selrahc: Yeah.
(12:42:00 PM) Selrahc: Uh, speaking of that.
(12:42:16 PM) Selrahc: The insane increase in my GNP caused me to change plans slightly.
(12:42:27 PM) Selrahc: I'm going to grab arcane lore with Tower.
(12:42:49 PM) Selrahc: Since sorcery dropped to a seven turn tech, while I had 6 turns left on the tower...
(12:43:13 PM) Selrahc: I'm thinking I can afford a 1t delay in order to grab a much more expensive technology.
(12:43:37 PM) pocketbeetle: Interesting
(12:44:11 PM) Selrahc: It was also in part because some of the potential mages were lagging in xp.
(12:44:26 PM) Selrahc: I'd currently only be able to get 2 out of 5!
(12:44:29 PM) Selrahc: Which isn't great.
(12:44:47 PM) Selrahc: A few turns later might see all of them ready for action.
(12:45:07 PM) Selrahc: Kind of wish I was arcane.
(12:45:15 PM) Selrahc: Charismaatic can only get you so far.
(12:46:01 PM) pocketbeetle: Must admit that's a bit annoying
(12:46:03 PM) Selrahc: Any thoughts?
(12:46:18 PM) Selrahc: Oh. How so?
(12:46:20 PM) pocketbeetle: Well, yeah. I wanted it ^^
(12:46:42 PM) Selrahc: The free Great Scientist? Tough. Can't have all the great people
(12:46:46 PM) pocketbeetle: But, I guess I can't beat you to it, so such is life
(12:46:52 PM) pocketbeetle: exactly
(12:47:10 PM) Selrahc: I'd think the great bard and great commander are good enough.
(12:47:21 PM) pocketbeetle: very true
(12:47:28 PM) pocketbeetle: but
(12:47:54 PM) pocketbeetle: you have to promise to forgive me my next cheeky action, whatever it is
(12:48:17 PM) Selrahc: I generally forgive them anyway, so sure.
(12:48:23 PM) pocketbeetle: lol true
(12:48:27 PM) pocketbeetle: ty
(12:49:01 PM) pocketbeetle: oh, rok priest finishing this turn
(12:49:11 PM) Selrahc: Ah. Cool.
(12:49:15 PM) pocketbeetle: where do you want him?
(12:49:37 PM) Selrahc: I'll be slaving out the monument this turn, so it shouldn't be long before the dyes are back in your command.,
(12:49:41 PM) Selrahc: Silent Night I think.
(12:49:57 PM) pocketbeetle: ok
(12:50:13 PM) Selrahc: Unless it gets RoK before then.
(12:50:21 PM) pocketbeetle: no chance!
(12:50:35 PM) pocketbeetle: bob is getting all my spreads fos some reason ffs
(12:50:58 PM) Selrahc: Yeah. I think I must have something like a 1 50th of the chance, given how long we've had trade routes.
(12:51:14 PM) pocketbeetle: seriously, it took me like 50t to get my first internal spread
(12:51:19 PM) pocketbeetle: screwy map!
(12:51:35 PM) Selrahc: Yeah.
(12:51:54 PM) Selrahc: I think you did pretty well in completely shutting down the religion game.
(12:52:11 PM) pocketbeetle: Eh, bad timing in saying that. Iskender is founding Emp soon
(12:52:12 PM) Selrahc: Since its T160 and only you and the elves have a state religion!
(12:52:30 PM) Selrahc: Ah. Fair enough.
(12:52:41 PM) pocketbeetle: I found out a little too late unfortunately, or I might have been tempted :D
(12:52:45 PM) Selrahc: Surprised you haven't taken it.
(12:52:50 PM) pocketbeetle: lol
(12:53:18 PM) Selrahc: It's a pretty damn good military reigion. Nice fit for Hippus.
(12:53:38 PM) Selrahc: Really fast, blinding light chariots everywhere.
(12:53:43 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah Chalid. Not sure about that
(12:53:59 PM) pocketbeetle: Wouldn't like Chalid coming after me
(12:54:14 PM) Selrahc: No. He is nasty.
(12:54:16 PM) pocketbeetle: ah well. Things'll hopefully work out
(12:54:21 PM) Selrahc: Yeah.
(12:54:28 PM) Selrahc: Things are certainly hotting up again.
(12:54:48 PM) Selrahc: We've had a good period of peace now.
(12:55:00 PM) Selrahc: But everyone will soon be getting their superweapons.
(12:55:04 PM) pocketbeetle: True. Damn Vampires.
(12:55:11 PM) Selrahc: Yeah.
(12:55:11 PM) pocketbeetle: What? What's my superweapon?!?!
(12:55:18 PM) pocketbeetle: Someone tell me quick!
(12:55:18 PM) Selrahc: Airships
(12:55:22 PM) pocketbeetle: whaaaaaaaaa
(12:55:25 PM) pocketbeetle: lmao
(12:55:44 PM) pocketbeetle: ah well. Thanks for the chat then dude , I guess I need to go find another tech to divine
(12:56:06 PM) pocketbeetle: I'm thinking.... Mithril working?
(12:56:14 PM) Selrahc: Heh. That would be cool.
(12:56:22 PM) Selrahc: Not much use for the centaurs though.
(12:56:24 PM) pocketbeetle: bit of a long wait :/
(12:56:40 PM) pocketbeetle: Yeah. Nevermind. Catch you later, I'll go play the turn
(12:56:49 PM) Selrahc: Alright. Seeya.
(12:56:50 PM) pocketbeetle: cya

There were several things that struck me in that chat, and writing this a couple of days later, it may turn out to be the most important one in the game so far.

First off, my worst fears are realised, Selrahc is going to ToD Arcane Lore, and there is nothing I can do about it.
He’ll get the free GSci which I had wanted to build an Academy in KK.

What went wrong?
I planned on Selrahc getting one GA, didn’t plan on a second.
Was it worth giving him the Sun mana to enable this to happen? Maybe with the Shrine of Sirona free hammers factored in, but probably not.
Such is life.

Secondly, and I may end up owing Selrahc for this, is the following line:

(12:31:15 PM) Selrahc: He'd have to make a deal with Iskender in that case to get access.

Not because he’s right, he’s actually wrong and I correct him shortly after. Bob could attack via Zaonce or Riedquat and then use the roads.
Why it’s so important is that it got me thinking about the possibility of Bob and Iskender actually working together.
Up until now, I’ve been stupidly naïve and working on the assumption that Iskender and I were talking in a vacuum, that Iskender has not been communicating with the Calabim.
Part of that assumption is based on the Hippus history with the Calabim (war, enforced settlement agreement which according to Iskender, the Calabim have violated by proxy) which has made me think their communications have been limited to something similar to Kurio-Calabim relations, ie general insults, the occasional badly veiled threat etc.
The other reason for me holding that view is because Iskender never mentions talking to the Calabim, nor does he ever go into any details.

But of course he’s talking to the Calabim, he probably approached them at the same time as me, except saying that it was Leesti that was the offending city instead of Sareln’s Thariss.
I know what his options are, I’ve listed them out in this thread, and I know he’s not a stupid person. He’s going to explore all his options, map out the potential gains, and then like the mercenaries he’s supposedly playing, go with the highest bidder.

However therein lies the rub.
If he’s conducting an auction for his services, why is he not letting me know there are other bidders in an attempt to drive up his price? Is he leaving it unspoken and assuming I should’ve figured it out for myself?
Why is he not letting me know what Bob is offering, so I can counter-offer?
The honest truth is, I can’t offer much more , maybe he’s not quite comprehending what I’m putting on the table?
Either way, I’m assigning myself my heaven-knows-what-number-we’re-on smiley for being so freaking dense.

Newly emboldened, I set off to find the Hippus leader and make him realise what a damn good deal I’m offering, even if I have to ram it forcibly down his throat.

(1:46:42 PM) pocketbeetle: Hi Iskender
(1:46:49 PM) Iskender: hey Pb
(1:47:05 PM) pocketbeetle: I saw your quick reply to that screenshot, what are your thoughts?
(1:47:23 PM) Iskender: i'm workig on a plan
(1:47:37 PM) pocketbeetle: would that plan involve me?
(1:48:07 PM) Iskender: you realize that my only serious units for some time will be rathas
(1:48:33 PM) Iskender: i think that maybe i could lure bob's stack somewhere near my border and then immobilize it
(1:48:56 PM) pocketbeetle: Well look, before we start getting into specifics, let's get the groundwork sorted
(1:49:51 PM) pocketbeetle: What I'm asking is: are you interested in a military alliance vs the Calabim, to remove or lessen the threat of Vampires. Territory gains would be pretty much exclusively yours, nomatter who does most of the action
(1:50:12 PM) pocketbeetle: You approached me a couple of days ago asking if I was interested, I'm saying yes
(1:51:30 PM) Iskender: i'm curious why do you need me in this operation actually. it looks like there's little I can do at the moment, apart from these rathas
(1:52:23 PM) pocketbeetle: ? I need you because I'm production limited Iskender. I have four cities...total. I can mass a decent force, but for me to feel confident in attacking Bob, I'd like an ally
(1:52:46 PM) pocketbeetle: Understand something
(1:53:03 PM) pocketbeetle: My time of leading the demographics is coming to an end
(1:53:10 PM) Iskender: are you ready to give me all his land for assistance of a couple of rathas?
(1:53:18 PM) pocketbeetle: Bob already beats me in crop, soon he will beat me in mfg goods etc
(1:54:13 PM) Iskender: i think he's been beating you in mfg for a long time (gov. manor hammer bonus)
(1:54:27 PM) pocketbeetle: I've been wondering that Is it not counted?
(1:54:28 PM) Iskender: but that's beside the point, sorry
(1:54:43 PM) Iskender: it's not included in demos
(1:55:06 PM) pocketbeetle: Well, sucks to be me then. So basically he's kicking all our asses, and now he has his superunit
(1:55:16 PM) pocketbeetle: I have my GNP, that's it
(1:55:27 PM) pocketbeetle: Regarding your last question
(1:56:13 PM) pocketbeetle: I'm willing to tell you I have no intention of settling in the SE. So if we take out Bob, yes it's yours. So long as - you are a serious and committed ally
(1:57:15 PM) pocketbeetle: You seem to be having trouble getting your head around the idea: I don't need land anymore Iskender
(1:57:16 PM) Iskender: aren't you afraid that with all that land I might actually be a worse threat than Bob?
(1:58:18 PM) pocketbeetle: At the moment you are the third highest rival. Bob I consider either 1st or 2nd. It's in my interest to weaken Bob
(1:58:50 PM) pocketbeetle: This is your time Iskender. Your time to dictate the terms
(1:59:45 PM) Iskender: let me give you an update on the situation with Sareln first
(2:00:00 PM) pocketbeetle: Sareln is irrelevent Iskender
(2:00:05 PM) Iskender: he may give me the wheat and maybe the bronze
(2:00:19 PM) pocketbeetle: We're talking about Bob here, and an alliance vs him
(2:00:58 PM) Iskender: ok, so what are your expectations about my part in that military alliance
(2:02:14 PM) pocketbeetle: I expect you to be committed. Depending on how YOU want to play it, and what Bob does, we can either joint attack, or defend the person he attacks then counter
(2:02:57 PM) pocketbeetle: I don't want to go into specifics until we at least have an understanding Iskender
(2:04:52 PM) Iskender: so you want me to be your ally and promise that I'd get Bob's land, but it's unclear how or when it'd happen
(2:05:23 PM) Iskender: i'm surely not equipped to conquer his cities myself. not now at least
(2:06:19 PM) pocketbeetle: Not at all. I'm happy to go into specifics once I understand we're together and on the same page.
It would be silly of me to reveal war plans and my army composition without being certain that someone was with me
(2:07:13 PM) Iskender: i understand that
(2:07:28 PM) Iskender: let me think about it
(2:07:46 PM) Iskender: that's quite the most important decision i'd make in this game
(2:08:01 PM) pocketbeetle: What is there to think about Iskender?
(2:08:18 PM) pocketbeetle: What are the options you are considering?
(2:08:21 PM) Iskender: a lot
(2:08:36 PM) Iskender: how it would end
(2:08:40 PM) Iskender: how i would end up
(2:09:05 PM) pocketbeetle: that's not an option Iskender. That's an outcome.
(2:09:10 PM) pocketbeetle: What are your options at this time?
(2:09:24 PM) pocketbeetle: Let me tell you what I've written in my thread
(2:09:33 PM) pocketbeetle: I think you have three options at this point
(2:09:51 PM) pocketbeetle: You are out of land and boxed in. You can either:
(2:10:07 PM) pocketbeetle: 1) Attack Bob with me. Possible to gain a lot of strong land
(2:10:31 PM) pocketbeetle: 2) Attack me with Bob. Possible to gain some land, less good and badly placed cities
(2:10:51 PM) pocketbeetle: 3) Focus inwards. Maybe summon Mercurians/Hyborem etc.
(2:11:02 PM) pocketbeetle: I think 3 is a bad idea
(2:11:09 PM) pocketbeetle: Obviously I think 2 is a bad idea also
(2:11:14 PM) Iskender: i labeled them A B C
(2:11:35 PM) pocketbeetle: So Bob has approached you?
(2:11:46 PM) Iskender: and C is what Sun Tzu recommends
(2:11:48 PM) pocketbeetle: Or have you approached Bob?
(2:12:04 PM) Iskender: i've came up with these myself
(2:12:15 PM) Iskender: i mean in my thread
(2:12:32 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay. So what did Bob say? What is he offering that I'm not?
(2:13:07 PM) Iskender: he didn't offer anything. he's not the kind of guy that tends to be generous
(2:13:57 PM) pocketbeetle: So why do you need time to decide then???
(2:14:13 PM) pocketbeetle: Do you think I've got no hope vs him, even if you help?
(2:15:10 PM) Iskender: on the contrary. but i need to see if i could gain more by getting involved than by not getting involved
(2:16:47 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay, but if Bob and I fight, he wins. I die. Do your chances of winning improve substantially?
Your neighbour still has more land. And now he'll have an experienced army.
(2:17:41 PM) pocketbeetle: You know that if I go, it's pretty much guaranteed you'll be next...
(2:19:14 PM) Iskender: ok, to be honest. my best option is to see you two hurt youself as badly as possible. if i support one side and it wins decisively i will not have gained anything
(2:19:26 PM) pocketbeetle: That's true.
(2:19:50 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay, so you're thinking the remain neutral, focus inwards option is better for the moment?
(2:20:25 PM) pocketbeetle: (Actually I don't agree with that last part) You'd gain a lot if we won decisively, but nevermind, ignore for th e sec
(2:20:40 PM) Iskender: if i was sure it's better i wouldn't have approached you
(2:22:21 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay. Well, I'll let you think about this for a little bit longer then Iskender.
I'm honestly having difficulty seeing why it's a hard decision. I think I'm much nicer than scary Vampires ( ) But nevermind
(2:22:42 PM) Iskender: you are, that's true
(2:22:56 PM) pocketbeetle: But, I will need a decision soon Iskender. Let me know

Have to be honest, I ended that chat with a bad feeling.

Question:

(1:49:51 PM) pocketbeetle: What I'm asking is: are you interested in a military alliance vs the Calabim, to remove or lessen the threat of Vampires.

Answer: (Dodge)

(1:51:30 PM) Iskender: i'm curious why do you need me in this operation actually. it looks like there's little I can do at the moment, apart from these rathas

Excuse:

(1:57:16 PM) Iskender: aren't you afraid that with all that land I might actually be a worse threat than Bob?

When you’re being offered a good deal, do you often try and talk the other person out of it?

Question: (what are your terms?)

(1:58:50 PM) pocketbeetle: This is your time Iskender. Your time to dictate the terms

Answer: (Attempt to dodge, cut him off)

(1:59:45 PM) Iskender: let me give you an update on the situation with Sareln first

Question:

(2:00:19 PM) pocketbeetle: We're talking about Bob here, and an alliance vs him

Attempted excuses:

(2:04:52 PM) Iskender: so you want me to be your ally and promise that I'd get Bob's land, but it's unclear how or when it'd happen
(2:05:23 PM) Iskender: i'm surely not equipped to conquer his cities myself. not now at least

Then delay:

(2:07:13 PM) Iskender: i understand that
(2:07:28 PM) Iskender: let me think about it

I try to press him, he agrees (?) with my summary of his options.

Question:

(2:12:32 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay. So what did Bob say? What is he offering that I'm not?

Answer:

(2:13:07 PM) Iskender: he didn't offer anything. he's not the kind of guy that tends to be generous

This just isn’t good.

The Illians until this point have been my allies of convenience.
We’ve worked around each other, made mutually beneficial trades when one of us needed something, and have generally gossiped a bit.
Yet while Selrahc seems quite happy to inform me about when he talks to Bob (possible trade routes in last chat, when he was considering trading maps a while ago) and give me some details on those chats, Iskender not only tells me no details, but shrugs off the suggestion that they’ve even communicated recently (despite the fact Iskender is still supplying Bob with Gems, shouldn’t that deal have ended by now?).
So if Bob’s offering nothing, then surely I’m the clear winner here?
What’s the indecision about?
Does he think I’ve got no chance, and joining me would mean certain doom?

Question:

(2:13:57 PM) pocketbeetle: So why do you need time to decide then???
(2:14:13 PM) pocketbeetle: Do you think I've got no hope vs him, even if you help?

Answer:

(2:15:10 PM) Iskender: on the contrary.

Hooray a proper answer!
But then he goes and fucks it up by guess what? Dodging again!

(2:15:10 PM) Iskender: …but i need to see if i could gain more by getting involved than by not getting involved

Continuing with the dodging:

(2:19:14 PM) Iskender: ok, to be honest. my best option is to see you two hurt youself as badly as possible. if i support one side and it wins decisively i will not have gained anything

This is just plain wrong and I should have shredded this sentence.
If he joins me and beats the Calabim, he makes huge gains! And I gain shit all except for a stronger neighbour and some wasted hammers on dead troops.

Contrast that to joining the Calabim to take me out, he gets shittier land (if he’s given any at all) a stronger militaristic neighbour, and a new extended front with guess what?
Another militaristic neighbour!

It’s such a clear choice.
Why is he being so thick?

So maybe this isn’t going to happen, maybe he really is considering option 3?

Question:

(2:19:50 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay, so you're thinking the remain neutral, focus inwards option is better for the moment?

Answer: (Dodge/delay)

(2:20:40 PM) Iskender: if i was sure it's better i wouldn't have approached you

A person who is looking to get out of a deal would’ve jumped on this.
It’s basically an offer to go back to the status quo, and if he should change his mind, he can always approach me again and say so.
Instead he’s keeping me hanging, keeping me wondering.
WHY?

So I ended that conversation with a reasonably strong impression that this deal isn’t likely to happen, and it’s going to be me alone vs the Vamps.
Then I went back and reread the chat with Selrahc, and something struck me.

(12:34:44 PM) Selrahc: "I'm writing to ask what do you think about the prospect of Pb getting
Airships filled with commando troops able to fork cities in 10+ tile
radius, striking from above a peak or from the ocean. Do you think
there's a way to counter it? I'm sceptical.
(12:34:46 PM) Selrahc: "

I laughed this off and treated it like a daft suggestion at the time (which it freaking is!)

But then I realised, not only is the person I’m proposing a military alliance to being extremely reticent, he’s also sending emails to my neighbour trying to make me more scary, trying to isolate me. (Although couldn’t he have found a better subject matter? Like my GNP or my wonder hogging?)
It’s exactly what I’ve been doing with the Calabim’s neighbours, and we all know why I’ve been doing that.

So, on one hand, I’ve got a neighbour who has been honest to the best of my knowledge for the entire game - I’ve yet to catch Selrahc in any kind of deception. It’s possible he misled me deliberately regarding ToD’ing Sorcery vs Arcane Lore, but in the end I gave him that Sun mana without asking what he was going for (because I thought he wouldn’t be able to reach it), nor did I ever reveal to him my plan for going for Arcane Lore.
Was it blatantly obvious everyone would try to take Arcane Lore?
Maybe, especially considering the way I’ve clearly been prioritising the ‘free GP’ techs, so maybe there’s a black mark against Selrahc there.

In the end however, he’s also making offers like the following, unasked and unprompted:

(12:31:28 PM) Selrahc: I can guarantee you that I'll not let him use my lands to attack you.
(12:31:41 PM) pocketbeetle: Really? I appreciate that. It helps
(12:32:21 PM) Selrahc: No problem. I'm not looking to stab you in the back here.
(12:32:44 PM) Selrahc: I'll keep you updated if Bob comes looking for an alliance against you as well.

Whether those are binding in a court of Civ law, I don’t know (sirius stuff :rolleyes but…it counts for something with me.
In fact it counts for a lot.

While on the other hand, my proposed military alliance partner refuses to even comment on whether he’s talking to someone or not.


And it gets worse.



….




Oooh cliffhanger!

Why Pb your ability to create dramatic tension is simply superb!

Why yes yes, thankyou!

Pb you must be the bestest evar!

Well maybe not the best, but certainly up in the top two or so, I must modestly agree.

[pocketbeetle]

At this point, I’d like to throw the floor open to any dedicated lurkers following along. =)
I think this could be an important point in the game, and I’d welcome all unspoiled opinions.

What are your thoughts on the Hippus’ actions so far?
If you had to rate me on a scale of paranoia, where am I coming in?

• “Blindly naïve”
  (He’s clearly been out for you from the moment he signed that long NAP with the Calabim. I can’t believe you’ve taken this long to figure it out, dumbass.)
  
• “Neutral”
  (He’s acting like a virgin on her wedding night, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s out for you, wait and see)
  
• ”Jumping at shadows”
  (Give the guy a break, you’re asking him to go against the big scary Vampires who are right on his border. Last time he asked you for help, you sent a single bloody Hill Giant, and it took too long to get there.)
  

It just seems like I’m proposing to him possibly the best deal that has ever been offered in one of these PBEMs.
That proposal is:

• To go to war against an aggressive threatening neighbour of the Hippus, who has declared war on him in the past.
  
• I’m offering to do most of the heavy lifting in terms of military action, and probably taking the most losses. I clearly have the power rating to make such an offer.
  
• I’m not an incompetent, nor am I noncommunicative, which I believe he knows and agrees(?)
  
• In return, he gets ALL conquered land, and it’s damn good land at that. Meanwhile I get a bunch of dead troops.
  

It’s a blinding offer.
How could Bob possibly beat it?
Even if the Calabim are offering exactly the same deal, the Kurios a) don’t have the previous bad history that the Calabim do and b) Iskender knows that my civ is going to cap out. In fact I already am, and apparently have been overtaken in both Crop and Mfg Goods.
If there was a “research Future Tech 25” victory condition, then maybe I could understand him being unsure.
But there isn’t!
GNP isn’t going to mean shit soon.

I’m wrapping myself in knots here trying to figure out why he isn’t biting my hand off to take this deal, and the only reasons I can come up with are bad ones (previously established deal to kill the Kurios – but then why approach in the first place?).

So anyway, opinions given over the next couple of days are very much welcome.



Furthermore, I’m a still a turn behind, and the next turn update is juicy.

You guys can either wait for tomorrow to get it (or maybe even the next day).
Or 15 separate people can create a post in this thread containing the sentence “Pb you’re an idiot” and I’ll post it straight away.

Up to you.

[Mardoc]

Or 15 separate people can create a post in this thread containing the sentence “Pb you’re an idiot” and I’ll post it straight away.

Well, we're 1/15th of the way to the prize now

Seeing as I'm definitely not an 'unspoiled opinion', though, I think I'll have to remain quiet about everything except my desire for entertainment.

Edit: Feel free to come over to PBEM 11 and let me know that the map is very cool and that you can't say more

[Cyneheard]

Well, we're 1/15th of the way to the prize now

Seeing as I'm definitely not an 'unspoiled opinion', though, I think I'll have to remain quiet about everything except my desire for entertainment.

Make that 2/15ths. And as being quite spoiled, I must also refrain from commenting.

[Adlain]

Pb your an idiot, I could have a heart attack tonight and never know what's going on!!!

[Mr. Yellow]

Pretty spoiled myself, but i sure want to know what happened the next turn when you're representing it that way.

Also, if you bring the giants to Bobs land in a possible war, will you troll him further by naming them Tiger and Wolf Rider again? :P

[novice]

Pb, You're an idiot to think lurkers will fall for such a transparent cry for attention.

[Ilios]

And it gets worse...

No!


It can't be!


Cull has built... a Herbalist?