RBP4 [SPOILERS] - Shaka of Zulu (sunrise089, regoarrarr, and friends)

[NobleHelium]

Yeah, I was asking whether it is a "good cop" plan or a "bad cop" plan. You're always remembered of course.

[darrelljs]

Let's not forget rego's entire PB3 plan revolved around setting me up as the fall guy. There's a reason sunrise089 rarely posts on topic in this thread .

Darrell

[Gold Ergo Sum]

Play after WK the turn before you declare, then the next turn wait for WK's half to end, and then declare and play with plako and maintain second half until conclusion of war.

[regoarrarr]

Play after WK the turn before you declare, then the next turn wait for WK's half to end, and then declare and play with plako and maintain second half until conclusion of war.

Okay. What about when I then declare on plako too?

[Gold Ergo Sum]

The rules are fairly silent on that. Probably would need to divide the turns up into 8 hour blocks, or go to a 36 hour timer.

EDIT: Considering based on the email you sent to WK, you are basically doing backdoor city gifting, I might need to think about this if you are serious about declaring on plako. It seems like your WK war would really be little more than a fiction to get around the rules against city gifting.

[regoarrarr]

But to declare war, I have to go first, right? So I'd have to play after WK, but before Plako?

[Gold Ergo Sum]

I am thinking about this. Like I said, it seems to me that if WK is just "giving" you cities, that really you would be at war with plako only because the WK war wouldn't really be a conflict at all. If you actually expect to be fighting true battles with WK, then we do need to devise some triple split. We may anyway.

[regoarrarr]

Well I have no concrete plans to be at war with either of those folks at this current time. I am just trying to cover my bases so that if either of those things become necessary that I don't have things invalidated because I didn't move the right way 5 turns previously, etc.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

The best option might be, if you will have a real war with both people, to hold the turn, end it, play immediately before both WK and plako, and take the first third of a three way timer. But if WK just agrees to vacate his backline, that is little more than veiled city gifting, and I am not sure how to handle that situation.

[regoarrarr]

A few interesting tidbits from this evening

First, a chat with LP

me: would you happen to have maps of the plako / wk border?
that you'd be willing to share?
Lord: I don't have much
Can try to get a screenie next time I log in though
me: i'm worried about plako
(again)
Lord: basically Plako's taken all the land down south
me: he's making a pretty bold land grab
Lord: so there are only a couple of cities remaining up north
me: not willing to "share" any of wk's lands
Lord: about half a dozen tiles south of you, maybe?
me: yes - i have units near wk's cities of knossos and mycenae
it's what's south of there that i'm interested in
where's your scout?
Lord: hmm, I see... that doesn't sound good
me: right
Lord: In Corinth at the moment
me: i'm worried i may have to try and stand up to the bully
Lord: where WK seems to be making his final stand
he's reconnected copper and has a half-decent stack, though still smaller than Plako's and lacking catapults. At least it's walled and on a hill though
hmm, I see
well I'm sure you wouldn't be alone there
me: well that's the thing
Lord: depending on the timing I might be able to look at helping out
me: everyone else is always keen to have someone ELSE do it....
Lord: Maybe Nakor/Locke would be interested too
me: do you have any agreements with him currently?
Lord: just a NAP for now... how about you?
me: nothing currently
when's your NAP go till?
wow bureaucracy - nice!
Lord: it expires shortly, trying to extend it for the moment though
don't want that army to turn up north after he's done with WK
me: right
me either
Lord: yeah, had to do some tile rearrangements to get it last turn, but just managed it
0 gold and I think 0 beakers to spare
Locke has Metal Casting now, I'm sure you noticed
that puts him 5 techs ahead of me now
me: yeah
well you've got CS on him
Lord: think I might go for MC next myself, delayed those Ind Forges long enough....
yeah, that's about all though, and I expect he's going for that now
me: you've got theo too
that's 2200 beakers you've got that he doesn't
Lord: right, he's still up on me though
haven't counted, but it's significant
me: what's he got on you? mc, philo, med?
Lord: alpha and monarchy I think
what does he have on you?
me: looksl iek net 1100 on you
he has med, philo, alpha and col on us
Lord: so you have MC?
me: yes
just last turn
Lord: ah, neat
you're plowing through the techs pretty fast yourself with all that Merchant gold
plus I see you've overtaken us in city count
me: yeah but i only have 3t left
Lord: ah well, I'm sure you've got some useful stuff in that time
Sent at 20:28 on Monday
me: so if we have to make a stand of some sort against plako aggression
are you able to offfer anything concrete?
or just well wishes?
(that's not a sarcastic question)
Lord: realistically, my army is pretty pathetic relative to his
me: sure
so is ours
Lord: I'd need at least 20 turns to prepare a reasonable assault, I think
me: you may be 9th in soldiers but we're 8th ;-)
Lord: hehe
Problem is I'm still in mass expansion mode (as I see you are), so it's not the ideal time to build a large army
me: sure
do you have enough that can act as a deterrent to not re-sign a nap?
if we all decline to sign naps
with him
then he at least has to keep his army on multiple fronts
and probably can't afford to attack any of us
Lord: I could maybe build enough to act as a slight deterrent
that seems like a reasonable idea
me: when's your nap currently expire?
Lord: keep him uncertain of where he'll be hit
me: right - i mean think of it from where you're at? if us, plako and nakor all canceled our naps with you, wouldn't you think twice about starting any wars?
Sent at 20:34 on Monday
Lord: of course, if multiple civs around you don't renew, it's never a good sign
me: so when does your current agreement run till?
yours and ours is till 170, right?
Lord: like I said, it expires shortly but I'm rather keen to extend it
I'm in no position to bluff with military
indeed, ours is until 170
me: ok
so what do we do?
do we let plako just take all of wK?
i'm willing to try and take a stand, and even contribute the most, but i can't do it alone
i'm not even talking about war
Lord: Well I think there's literally nothing I can do to stop him, I'm too far away and he'll be gone within 10 turns. Even if I had a stack ready I wouldn't be able to get there on time
me: right - i'm not saying you have to contribute militarily
even just not renewing the nap would do something
i understand that's a risk for you
it's a risk for us too
but if we do nothing how are we going to stop him when he has twice our land?
Lord: I guess so. I'm obviously a bit dubious about putting myself at risk for no prospect of personal gain, though
Yeah, it's not a pretty thought
me: how about the personal gain of not having a plako that has twice your land knocking on your door in 100t?
with infantry to your rifles
or whatever
Lord: Well I don't see how me not renewing a NAP is going to help much there. You're only a little ahead of us militarily, and Plako is miles in front. I don't see how you can expect to gain more than a couple of WK's cities, so Plako will still be in much the same position...
Besides, I'd rather die a hundred or so turns down the track than in just a few turns
me: well it's not like he 'd be able to kill you
you're not wk
#1 you have way more land / pop / tech than he does
Lord: Don't get me wrong, I'm obviously gravely concerned about Plako, I just don't see how anything I can do would really help at all.
(Right now at least)
me: and #2 you've said yourself you woulnd' tmake the same mistakes he has
and #3 the "international community" wouldn't stand for it
i know we wouldn't
even more so than we're already not standing for it now
Lord: I guess so
I'll have a think about it anyway
me: ok
i'll ping nakor and locke
Lord: How soon do you expect to be declaring war?
me: oh i don't expect to be declaring war
at least i hope i don't have to
Lord: on Plako or WK?
me: plako
if he won't back off of taking all of WK's lands and at the very least leaving them empty for now
maybe we'll have to
Lord: ok
let me know when you're done with the turn... I have a small window where I can play now, then I'm busy for a while
me: ok
can you see plako's stack?
Lord: I can see some of his units advancing on Corinth
He's split into 4 smaller stacks, one defending and 3 advancing
me: what's it like?
Lord: I can give you exact unit compositions if you want
me: that would be fabulous
(ending turn)
Lord: cool
me: great prophet yours?
Lord: shouldn't be, I'd guess Luddite's
me: ok
guess we'll see the kashi vishnawarath then
Lord: ok, he's rearranged since I last looked
1S of Corinth he has 7*HA, 5*Cat, 3*Axe, 2*Spear
2S1E of Corinth he has 1*HA, 2*Cat, 3*Spear
me: yikes
Lord: He also has 5*HA and 1*Axe further south
including a supermedic HA
Sent at 20:56 on Monday
Lord: confirmed that the Prophet is Luddite's
guess he'll build the Hindu shrine soon
me: confirmed also that plako has 166 prod
Lord: wow
no wait, that's me
me: i've actually moved up to 5th
i have ....
wait for it....
66
Lord: I switched to all hills last turn due to anarchy
in hope of that 1 in 10,000 pop
me: what does that do?
lol
Lord: don't know if it works in anarchy though
plako has 153
me: okay
you must be at 166 then from all the hills?
graphs still show him as #1 but that's a turn behind of course
Lord: demos will show him at 153 as soon as I've taken off all my hills
me: right

Trying to get some multi-national support if we need to stand up to plako. More on that shortly

Also, he is 1100 net beakers down to Locke. We are about 1700. Compared to LP, we are down Code of Laws, Civil Service, Theology, but up Metal Casting, Monarchy, Iron Working, Calendar (so we're down about 500-600 beakers to him, but 800 of that is the relatively useless Theology)

LP did research CS and revolted to Bureau last turn