Pink Dot IT Office - Email and technical issues thread - All welcome, all the time

[Munro]

Ok, obviously a complicated issue with passionate feeling all around. How about I propose we vote on two things:

1) Did dsplaisted's use of the game clock constitute a "bad faith" or "against the spirit of the rules" movement, and therefore should I reload the turn?

2) Should we change the double move rule to an enforced movement order with an assumed 9hour/9hour split in the movement order based on who moved first during the first turn of the conflict, and then allow players to negotiate amongst themselves for an alternate system if they so desire? Keep in mind this will generally make war movement more fair assuming players are able to log in during their assigned window.

I don't know that dsplaisted acted in bad faith, but I agree with Elkad's point of view completely. There's no way I could log in every 9 hours just to police against potential double moves and I wouldn't want to have to just to stay competitive..

So without any censure against dsplaisted, I vote Yes to both reload and the rule changes as proposed by Sunrise and Elkad. Good faith effort to maintain turn order as far as possible (play as early as possible if you're first in the turn order, and give the other player at least the first half of the game clock to do so if you're second in the turn order).

[dsplaisted]

Somewhere back around the very first turn I played, I posted "It looks like I'm first in war order, so I'll continue that policy"

I really wish I had responded to that and stated that we didn't have any such agreement. However, since I didn't speak up, I am OK with a reload.

I vote not to change the rules. If Elkad wants a turn order agreement with me we can probably work one out.

I think there is some misunderstanding on some of the specifics of the situation, but it really isn't important.

[Elkad]

I believe you thought you were playing within the rules, so no animosity there.

Would you prefer a reload to sometime in T125 before you attacked? Or is at the turn flip OK?

Obviously I'd prefer at the flip, so we aren't re-randomizing the T125 combat.

And I'm not sure what autosaves are still available anyway, so we may not have much choice on that (without going all the way back to the beginning of T125)

[regoarrarr]

Okay since it looks like we're going to reload - I have paused the game with 43 minutes left.

[sunrise089]

Okay since it looks like we're going to reload - I have paused the game with 43 minutes left.

Thanks for pausing. I will reload once Elkad and Dsplaisted (who are both to be commended for working this out in a very non-Poly manner) agree on a specific reload point.

I'd also like the voting to continue, since this won't solve the double move issue completely.

Only once comment on that:

The only thing I would like to see is get rid of any 'good faith' wording in rules because nobody will ever agree on that when a debate arises. The person who lost a city will always be upset and the person who took it will always be fine with it and nobody else can know their motives.

I think the "good faith" wording is crucial. We aren't Game of the Month or Civplayer Ladder guys here. In the unlikely event that someone does something really shady but within the letter of the law, I trust the community to be fair and not merely self-serving.

[shadyforce]

I vote no to the second question, particularly in light of dsp and Elkad settling the issue. I don't want this to turn into a PBEM by rule (we're playing pitboss for a reason) and while I think people should try and play to some order in race conditions, flexibility is important because people have real lives and good faith is important because it seems impossible to word a double move rule perfectly.

[Imhotep]

Now it's getting a little bit ridiculous, isn't it? If you people are so concerned about double moves, you should have voted non-simultaneous turns in the first place. Civ MP just lives by the fact that simultaneous turns can give an advantage sometimes. If you don't like it, play SP.

Now for the move order this simply kills the spirit of the game as an MP game. If I want to play a game like that, I load up Civ and play SP. The 9 hour rule was good in my opinion, as sunrise says, it was like extending the normal 8 seconds delay in MP to the longer timer. What you guys are doing now is turning it into an SP-like game. I don't think I will play on under these circumstances.

Imhotep

[Elkad]

Imhotep. How about "your 9 hours starts when you click end-turn, and you can't login again until that 9hours has expired?". That's at least obvious from civstats. It's not a solution I like, but I don't like the idea of logging in every hour to check my enemies movements either (and making notes which units moved when, etc)

Without an order, or at least a rule you move all your units at once (basically one login per turn), it's impossible to even police the 9hr rule.

For example - Other than trust, there is no evidence that dsplaisted's city-capturing unit even waited 9 hours. For all any of us can tell, he attacked with the other units, the attack failed, so in the span of a couple minutes he loaded up some reinforcements, moved them across the water, clicked end-turn, and attacked.

Incidentally, what other rules are there besides the 9hr one?

[dsplaisted]

I am OK with reloading either just before or just after the turn ticked over.

Without an order, or at least a rule you move all your units at once (basically one login per turn), it's impossible to even police the 9hr rule.

We're generally quite willing to rely on mutual trust at RB, so there doesn't really need to be a way to police it.

[sunrise089]

Quoting myself...

I'd also like the voting to continue, since this won't solve the double move issue completely.

To clarify, I only mean voting on whether or not we should revise the rule, not the legality of dsplaisted's move, since that issue has been resolved amicably. Right now I think the tally is 4 vote (Lins, Elkad, Broker, and Munro) in favor of changing the rules and 3 votes (Yaz, Imhotep, and Shadyforce) opposed. 4 of us (Regoarrar, sunrise, dsplaisted, and Kodii) have not voted yet. Do I have that tallied right?

I will check what saves I have and then reload either right before or right after the turn rolled over.