OK, as PBEM20 is entering the end game, I've been reflecting on the changes that I think still need to be made. There aren't many:
Possible changes in RB mod 2.0
Nukes? Increase the cost, but state that you expect the players to decide if they want them on or not - they need be more balanced on huge maps, even if it makes them overly expensive for smaller maps with less units. 5K for an ICBM, 1K for a tac nuke - discuss
War weariness? Strip is out.
Extension - make it easier to knock to 0%? Effect on Polive State. Rushmore: Jails in every city? Need concensus. Might be possible to tie a “No WW” option to an option such as aggressive AI that doesn’t affect MP.
SoZ - 200 base hammers, no monuments, +3XP, 2GA gpp. Remove WW effect. Don’t want to remove as it is a good cheap wonder for use in culture wars early on in the game, and removing it weakens the Literature line which isn’t wanted, but don’t really have any minor tweak that makes it acceptable because the main effct is what is broken. The effect of +3XP in 1 city is worth more to Non-CHM leaders than CHM civs, OTOH, with this CHM civs can get to 8XP without a stables and with just 1 XP civic
Internet - global beaker bonus, convert to a wonder? Beakers at that stage of a game are still useful but a beeline moves away from Apollo. One suggestion is 25% beakers, but I think I’d rather it be slightly on the weak side so it is situational. 15%?
Cristo Redentor - needs to be useful to SPI. change to 2 turn revolts. Maybe +200% production with SPI. Consider that with IW, Power and factory you can make +200% already, an extra +100% isn’t actually all that much.
Culture Victory - back to normal values then 33K on quick (up from 25K, back in line with other game speeds).
Tech trading tech costs increase, known tech bonus: Perhaps copy into NTT, drop known tech to 35 from 50? - Major point. Would allow reintergration of mod versions.
(Actual change was to increase by 50% the tech costs of Education, PP, Nationalism, Gunpowder, and increase the costs of all techs after this by 100%)
FIN - f*** knows. 4 commerce kick in on land? Let them pick up cheap markets.
Options for FIN:
Leave as is, 3 on land, 2 on coast.
4 on land, 2 on coast
3 on everything
25% gold
25% beakers
Add in to this, cheap banks, cheap markets.
Any late era buildings? Potentially there are a few but nothing that really fits the trait. Could pick up cheap harbours though, with EXP picking up cheap Aquaducts
Note: here is an evaluation I made last year at the start of PBEM20 on the traits. It explains my view of FIN that I still adhere too after playing PBEM20.
I've actually been thinking quite hard on that tbh. I'm not entirely sure where to start either. I htink I might have to go back to basics in my explanation.
They all do different things. They all used to do different things, and I think the changes have had far reaching consequences on picking strategies. I've listed them above in rough grups, and I'll start form the rear.
AGG, PHI, IND, SPI
The last 4 do nothing to help expansion, but give you efficiency savings on various parts of the game, efficiency savings that mean you can get some stuff faster, earlier into the game, but they don't help you grow, the critical X factor that other leaders have. I don't think a combination between these 4 traits is particularly viable without knowing the game type, or map, beforehand. Unless you get an awesome UB/UU and great starting techs, but then, pair them with better traits.
I do think one of these traits is still a good choice, paired with one of the others, to give you options, and to give greater flexibility later on in the game. I'd label these traits late game traits, except that's not fair, AGG is now half decent early on, but you still don't want to build barracks, even half price and as cheap as monuments, when you don't want to build monuments in the first place. And IND, well, we've all seen IND civs throw down Henge in 20 turns, Oracle in 35 for MC, or Pyramids (sometimes you get all three and everyone runs scared), but you leverage the trait into an economic advantage that you don't always get. PHI I'm always going to hold is a mostly wasted trait, the only time I've ever seen it really used properly is with Egypt - getting an Academy a few turns earlier doesn't matter much when you can save gold, and an early shrine can save you hundreds of hammers on religion spreads, but after that, I think it only really helps you in specific situations (need a GA for a bomb, or running SoL/Merc and pushing GP everywhere for multiple GAs once all of hte bars are full). SPI is just awesome, but you need to be in contention, with enough land and up there near the front with tech for it to put you over the top, and PBEM17 to me just shows how important picking something that helps you in the ealry game is.
CHM, ORG
The next 2 traits, I'm not actually sure about. Now that you can use cheap libs as border pops with ORG, just how viable is that trait? 30 hammers, compared to 20 for a monument, for double the culture which means the time to a border pop is 2 turns less on quick, and 5 less on normal? So even if it takes 5 turns longer to build on normal, it works out identical for getting the fat cross worked. Plus the 2 sci slots, the +25% bpt? And then the additional 3 cheap buildings? See, they generally suck except on hammer poor maps like archi, because you don't actually need them, and on maps such as PBEM17, PB4, and the like with lots of lands, you "over"expand and you don't get to CoL because CH don't help your situation, plowing on and working more cottages is always the answer. Or was, at least. And you don't need light houses on mostly land maps, and factories come so late they don't matter, leaving the civic effect, of -50% civic upkeep just a bit meh.
And CHM giving a striaght +2 happy? I really like that, but if you have happy nearby, or can grab a religion, you can survive without it, and you can't really stack whip anger that well anymore. It just seems a bit like a crutch, and you aren't going to be using the happy caps that much...but then again, in PBREM16 I had a fair few cities butting up at happy caps at size 4, and who knows how usefull an extra 10 pop would have been?
These two are traits whose viability I think is only going to be decided in game. Maybe ORG perhaps needs a buff, but CHM might actually be really powerful if used right. Who knows. I wouldn't condemn anyone for picking either of them, but I don't think they are quite as good as other traits that give early game advantages.
CRE, PRO, IMP, EXP
They're just good traits but late game? Useless, pretty much, so if you pick them use them and you damn well better be controlling the game by t60. I like how CRE lets you play lazy and takes out one of the most difficult decisions of hte early game, and obviously it seems other players do as well. PRO? It's not as powerful as people think, unless you can grab happy from somewhere, your generally not that bad off if you just shit at size 4 building stuff with mines. If you aren't growing, granaries aren't that great. EXP? I like the flexibility it gives you if you start coastally, especially if you start with fishing, you can afford to start any other tech because you will be the fastest off the start line. IMP, well, I'll always have a softspot in my heart for 2 pop settlers, which you can almost get with IMP (just need to get to 13 hammers instead of 32. Big difference).
But if you don't make the advantages stick, you're kinda screwed, because the big dog is still in town:
FIN
How did we nerf FIN again? We made it need 3 commerce on land. So, on maps with lots of coast, it's basically the same. On maps with lots of land, it takes an additional 10 turns to switch on for river cottage, and 30 turns otherwise, compared to 0 and 10 turns respectively. TBH, I don't see that as much of a nerf: just start working the cottages earlier. Stop slaving earlier, which is very easy to do when slavery basically sucks for production. I could be wrong. It could be that with less happiness HR becomes more important, but the other options, Caste+workshops requires beaker sinks in MC+CoL and still needs happiness. And coast is still cheap to work, giving a 50% commerce income that is identical in yield to CS workshops...except it doesn't need feeding. But it's not as good at playing the expansion game as it once was. Beforehand other leaders would have to stop expansion because they'd go on strike, but FIN could afford those few more city sites, and if you run a light military for a few turns longer you'd have overcome the starting advantages of the other traits, or at least part of it.
I still think FIN is overpowered, and I have ideas how a nerf could work, but let's play it out and see what happens. I do hope I'm wrong.
But that's only one way of looking at things. Lets look at them in a different light, those that are mainly helping the start, and those that give a boost that mainly kicks in after t80:
Early expansion: CRE, EXP, IMP, PRO, CHM, AGG(ish)
Late economic: ORG, SPI, AGG, PHI, IND, FIN.
So, to go back to wait I said earlier, you can take a late game trait, but it's a bit risky to take two of them. Out of all of the late game traits, if you can only have one, which one would you take?
Exactly. Not much of a choice, not when you can still use it partly as an expansion trait.
So, that's (my opinion of) the leader traits discussed briefly. The only things that I don't think would work are 6 trait combos, of which only 5 exist (and the sixth doesn't because it's considered "OP" lol). But that is only half the story, as far as picking goes. What about civs?
I think the value of traits depends alot too of the type of the game, for example if its Cton game I think your opinion on spiritual its totaly wrong, because there you realy can't plan too much in adavance because someone can atack you with galeons and screw your plan to get liberalism in 6 turns, so switching between slavery and caste sytem its very useful.And spiritual save alot in the beggining too: revolt to slavery, revolt to organizat religion, converting to a religion to gain happines.After playing some games without diplomacy if someone would put me to pick just one trait that would be spiritual.
About, organizat, you are true, i think should reduce civic upkeep by 70-80% to be better, and with slavery getting so weak i think its good for faster producing courthouse(its still giving half price courthose on this mod??).
About Philo : personaly i think philo its agreat trait and in game with diplomacy could be very strong, but in CTON i just found its not great because you need tiles to slave, need money for upgrades, and you can't just go with the merchants on the posibly enemies teritory.
About Fin , well if you seen my games i never picked financial even that was posible, because i realy believe some other combination can gave an advantage,which used properly can be used to win.For example in a peaceful game with same setings you can get oxford university with 20 turns earlier
with philo than with fin, but if there is war Philo is weak , because you can work cottages and slave units, but you can't build universities and units in same time.So to make philo good for war situation make it to gave half markets for example too.
GP levels increased by x%
Unit XP levels increased by x%
Or if you go fin, you only get 1 trait.
I have finally decided to put down some cash and register a website. It is www.ruffhi.com. Now I remain free to move the hosting options without having to change the name of the site.
(October 22nd, 2014, 10:52)Caledorn Wrote: And ruff is officially banned from playing in my games as a reward for ruining my big surprise by posting silly and correct theories in the PB18 tech thread.
Financial: Require 3 commerce on land to receive the bonus commerce. Water tiles still only require 2 commerce to receive the bonus, though. Remember: A Golden Age cannot trigger Financial's bonus yield (as in the base game).
Expansive: No longer gets double-speed granaries, but gets double-speed grocers. +35% Worker Production, +35% work boat production.
Creative: Loses cheap Libs, regains +2 culture per city, half price theatres, Colluseums
Charismatic: +2 happiness, but no longer gets +1 happy from Monuments
Protective: Plus double-speed granaries, but loses double speed castles and drill 1 on archery and gunpowder units.
Imperialistic: Double-speed Custom Houses (At least this gives Imp something on water maps. For flavor, Custom Houses are very mercantile, which is what 17th century Imperialism was). +60% Settler Production.
Organized: Gains double speed libraries.
Civs:
Rebalancing:
Inca: Terraces now give +1 culture, Quechua loses combat 1
Byzantium: Cataphracts are 11 strength
Khmer: Ballista Elephants are 8 str, +50% vs. Mounted units, +25% vs. Knights, and still target Mounteds outside of a city (this buff was to make them better than regular WE against their nemesis, Knights)
Sumeria: Vultures now get +30% vs. Melee.
India: The Fast Worker is now 2 moves, but starts with Mobility (-1 Terrain Movement Costs), and now starts with Mysticism/Wheel, instead of Mysticism/Mining (slower start).
Celts: Dun now gives G2, not G1.
Portugal: Feitoria now costs 120h, from 180h.
Rome: Preat S7. Forum increased to +35% GPP generation
Persia: Immortal is now a S5 spear
Carthage: Cothon decreased to 80 hammers. Numidian cav increased to S6, C1, loses melee bonus and F1 (and innate retreat chance).
France: Salon +1 free spec, -1 artist
Civics:
Vassalage now provides free support for military units as well (meaning Pacifism is cheaper), and is Medium Upkeep
Slavery: 30h for the 1st pop, 20h for the 2nd pop and subsequent pops. So, 30/50/70/90. On Quick speed, that's 20/33/46/60.
Serfdom: +75% Worker Speed, +1h for Watermills and Windmills
Free Market: No longer provides -25% Corporate Costs. Now provides +25% Trade Route Yield.
Environmentalism: No longer provides +25% Corporate Costs, or +2 commerce to windmills. Provides +1 gold per specialist, +1c to farms and pastures, +2c to forest preserves, and Low upkeep. Swapped with Free Speech. Now at Liberalism
Free Speech: Now High Upkeep, swapped with Environmentalism. Now at Scientific Method
Wonders:
Red Cross: 200h
West Point: 550h, +5XP. Now requires a lvl 5 unit (17XP/13XP for Cha)
Great Lighthouse: Now +1 trade route instead of +2 trade routes, enabled at Masonry, but needs lighthouse and Sailing (no functional change in the tech requirements but makes F6 look less cluttered)
Base unit changes:
War Elephants are now 7 str, +50% vs. Mounted units, and +25% vs. Knights
Technology:
Hunting: enables pastures, cost increased by 50% from 40 to 60. No longer enables camps.
Animal Husbandry: enables camps, and scouts. No longer enables pastures.
Archery: tech cost decreased 2/3, from 60 to 40
Espionage:
Switch Civic and Switch Religion now require Future Tech
Spies now spawn with "Secretive", and cannot see tiles except the one they're standing on.
The No Espionage game option now works properly:
GSpy points are converted into Great Merchant points
Espionage no longer gets converted into culture
Cultural expansion now happens at normal values
Spies cannot be built
Graphs are always visible on contact
Tile Changes:
Watermills: +1 base hammers, no longer receives +1h at Rep Parts
Workshops: +1 base hammers, no longer receives +1h at Chemistry
Mines: +1h at Rep Parts
Whaling Boats: Enabled at Sailing, not Optics. Otherwise unchanged.
Game Mechanics:
The Draft: Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft. A city must now end a draft at size 7 instead of size 5 (So size 9 to draft a rifle, size 8 to draft a musket).
Corporations: Completely removed from the game.
Miscellaneous:
Coastal Blockade now has a range of 1 square around the blockader, instead of 3 squares
Barracks: increased cost to 60 hammers, +1 culture
AP Resolutions: Declare War (on a non-member), Force Peace (between two members), and Assign City are no longer eligible resolution actions.
Fail-gold: You never get fail-gold if you also completed the wonder somewhere else (so no National Wonder fail-gold, or doubling up on a wonder to guarantee yourself a paycheck. The game still informs you that you received "0 gold" from your hammers).
Hut techs: Can only gain techs from the first two rows of the tech screen
Addendum: These changes are only present in the Tech Trading version of the mod.
Tech Trading:
Known Tech Bonus changed to 50 (up from 30), enabled by Tech Trading (so there is no Known Tech Bonus until you research Paper)
Alphabet no longer enables tech trading, allows Open Borders
Writing enables Map trading, no longer enables OB
Paper enables Tech trading, no longer enables Map Trading. Requires Metal Casting, Literature and Code of Laws as mandatory prerequisites.
Corporation enables Tech Trading
Scientific Method enables Tech Trading
Cost of Education, Gunpowder, Printing Press and Nationalism increased by 50%
Cost of all subsequent techs increased by 100%
Techs prior to Paper in the tech tree can no longer be traded:
The untradeable techs are as follows: Fishing, The Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Mysticism, Mining, Sailing, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Meditation, Polytheism, Masonry, Horseback Riding, Priesthood, Monotheism, Bronze Working, Writing, Metal Casting, Iron Working, Aesthetics, Mathematics, Alphabet, Monarchy, Compass, Literature, Calendar, Construction, Currency, Machinery, Drama, Engineering, Code of Laws, Feudalism, Optics, Music, Philosophy, Civil Service, Theology, Divine Right, Paper, Guilds, Banking
Ruff_Hi Wrote:re FIN - what about a penalty on something ...
GP levels increased by x%
Unit XP levels increased by x%
Or if you go fin, you only get 1 trait.
Interesting idea.
One problem: you want a penalty that isn't counter-balanced by a specific other trait. More expensive GP --> Fin/Phi dominates. XP levels increase? Cha restores that balance, or you say "meh, I just want 1-promo units, whatever." Etc. etc.
One-trait-only is IMO a terrible idea: Fin becomes an all-or-nothing exercise, instead of trying to leverage how one's pair of traits work together.
What do you think about no bonus on land tiles for Fin, but cottages start as hamlets? Extra commerce early, but towns give the same commerce for Fin and non-Fin? Coast is still +1 commerce for Fin bonus in the late game. Can be supplemented by half-price Markets
mackoti Wrote:I think the value of traits depends alot too of the type of the game, for example if its Cton game I think your opinion on spiritual its totaly wrong, because there you realy can't plan too much in adavance because someone can atack you with galeons and screw your plan to get liberalism in 6 turns, so switching between slavery and caste sytem its very useful.And spiritual save alot in the beggining too: revolt to slavery, revolt to organizat religion, converting to a religion to gain happines.After playing some games without diplomacy if someone would put me to pick just one trait that would be spiritual.
About, organizat, you are true, i think should reduce civic upkeep by 70-80% to be better, and with slavery getting so weak i think its good for faster producing courthouse(its still giving half price courthose on this mod??).
About Philo : personaly i think philo its agreat trait and in game with diplomacy could be very strong, but in CTON i just found its not great because you need tiles to slave, need money for upgrades, and you can't just go with the merchants on the posibly enemies teritory.
About Fin , well if you seen my games i never picked financial even that was posible, because i realy believe some other combination can gave an advantage,which used properly can be used to win.For example in a peaceful game with same setings you can get oxford university with 20 turns earlier
with philo than with fin, but if there is war Philo is weak , because you can work cottages and slave units, but you can't build universities and units in same time.So to make philo good for war situation make it to gave half markets for example too.
I don't think there is anything here that I'd fundamentally disagree with mackoti, SPI does start to become useful at CoL/Feud etc but it is most powerful when you have multiple columns of civics to swap. Philo can be solid even if it has normally been unremarkable, I still remember it being so critical to me in PB3, and the OU in PBEM17 is what kept Darrell in contention through that stage of the game.
FIN though, I'm reading ambiguity in your comments. You're saying that PHI is weak, implying that FIN is strong, even though "other traits" can be used to get an advantage. Are you saying that PHI needs a boost, and that FIN doesn't need changing? Or are you saying that FIN needs a nerf because it works better than PHI?
Cyneheard Wrote:One problem: you want a penalty that isn't counter-balanced by a specific other trait. More expensive GP --> Fin/Phi dominates. XP levels increase? Cha restores that balance, or you say "meh, I just want 1-promo units, whatever." Etc. etc.
Yes, you can balance it out ... and in effect end up with 1 trait.
I have finally decided to put down some cash and register a website. It is www.ruffhi.com. Now I remain free to move the hosting options without having to change the name of the site.
(October 22nd, 2014, 10:52)Caledorn Wrote: And ruff is officially banned from playing in my games as a reward for ruining my big surprise by posting silly and correct theories in the PB18 tech thread.
Krill Wrote:Can't balance it out for every combo though. And frankly, I'd call that proposal overkill.
I was thinking about 1 penalty ... not a whole string of them.
I have finally decided to put down some cash and register a website. It is www.ruffhi.com. Now I remain free to move the hosting options without having to change the name of the site.
(October 22nd, 2014, 10:52)Caledorn Wrote: And ruff is officially banned from playing in my games as a reward for ruining my big surprise by posting silly and correct theories in the PB18 tech thread.
