RB PBEM #1 - Gandhi [spoilers]

[Ruff_Hi]

The first aim is to kill that city at #1 so that I remove the Greek culture controlling the access to Sparta. Aim #2 is to take the two cities marked #2. These are Sooooo's remaining hammer rich cities.

I'll do a tour of the Greek cities and record each cities hammer generating ability. My game plan will focus on those cities that generate the most hammers.

[novice]

I'll do a tour of the Greek cities and record each cities hammer generating ability. My game plan will focus on those cities that generate the most hammers.

Espionage has played an interesting role in this game. City visibility sure seems handy when planning an invasion.

[kalin]

I have 2 Morale promoted tanks - they can move 4 tiles in Sooooo's territory. These could be very powerful weapons but I want to make sure that I get full value for them.

This may be a bit late, but I had this thought about Commando promo for tanks! They could move 10 tiles using Soooo's rails right?

Kalin

[Ruff_Hi]

This may be a bit late, but I had this thought about Commando promo for tanks! They could move 10 tiles using Soooo's rails right?

Kalin

Ohh - now there is an option.

Commando Promotion
Can Use Enemy Roads and Railroads
Combat IV and Military Science
Recon, Artillery, Mounted, Melee, Gunpowder, Armored

Well - to start with, I don't have the Military Science tech, but it may be useful. Lets see ... 5 promotions needs 26 XPs ... my HE city and FF roll out tanks with 9XPs each. Rats, I could have had 2 commando tanks by using the 2 GGs. That would have been nasty. Sooooo's capital is currently protected by 1 archer - I could have killed it (not that it is currently much). His old capital is where all his hammers are - and it is well protected.

I've been promoting down the Drill line to get my units to survive - they don't really need the extra strength during the attack as most units are bombed down to half strength.

I'll have to remember this and see if I can get 1 or 2 for when it is pure mop up time. Will work on getting some tanks to 26XPs.

[T-hawk]

My understanding is that I have zero turns in revolt (ie spiritual) and I can change my civics / religion once each and every turn.

Two turns of drafting for the cost of 1 turn out of Bureaucracy.

Yes, that works. I did this in Epic 24. It also works to flip in and out of Serfdom, which gives the same effect, two turns of Serfdom worker speed for the cost of 1 turn out of Slavery or Emancipation.

[Ruff_Hi]

This may be a bit late, but I had this thought about Commando promo for tanks! They could move 10 tiles using Soooo's rails right?

Actually - thinking about this some more - what about my public no spoiler information stance?

Firstly, lets review my two attempts at a lurker code of conduct ...

1) Lurkers can respond to civ4 mechanics questions (eg how many turns for a worker to chop a forest? Why didn't my cottage grow? How does the AP work?)

2) Lurkers can congratulate players on achieving a goal (eg Well done on getting that city spot)

2a) However, don't reveal unnecessary information on your comment (eg Well done on getting that city spot - I really thought that Greece was going to get it)

3) Lurkers can participate in option discussions but only after the player has articulated the options and only to the extent of pointing out additional strengths / weaknesses of options that the player might have missed

3a) Lurkers can NOT suggest additional options that the play might have missed
3b) Lurkers can NOT express opinions about various options

4) Lurkers can express opinions on player agreed rules, but should also point out that rules agreed by the players should be discussed by the players

5) Lurkers cannot ask sequence questions (eg when will Settler for Black Dot be ready?)

6) Lurkers can ask for screenshots

and

1. when I win - I don't want anyone to say I only won because I had lurker spoiler information
   
2. no giving away my plans to the other teams
   
3. no giving away their plans to me
   
4. don't make me haunt you if you wreck my game
   
5. don't make another team haunt you for wrecking their game
   
6. will your actions stand up once the spoiler threads are uncovered?
   
7. what would you say if a player to come back at you with one of these questions / comments ...
   • "Why did you tell so-and-so our plans?"
     
   • "So-and-so never saw that coming until you told them"
     
   • "It was perfect, I had completely fooled them ... until you wrecked it all by bring it to their attention"
     

Well - the above comment is obviously in beach of 3a) above. It is not even covered in the second LCoC (which is clearly aimed at not wrecking the game due to revealing spoiler information).

I guess that I have mellowed on the lurker interaction front. The way to stay perfectly lurker spoiled free is to get no feedback. Writing these reports and getting zero feedback is really dull and not why we are are doing this. Lets face it - the players are doing all of this reporting to show off.

So - I've come to accept lurker feedback as ok ... but only if it is limited. Now, what does limited mean?

Well - something like 'farm the rice before farming the grassland' must be ok. But 'watch out for that stack of 20 HAs on your left flank' isn't. I posted a dot map early in this thread and got some feedback (well before they whole lurker issues come up). I guess that I don't have an answer to that question.

Now - regarding this comment in particular ... will this be a game changing comment? Truthfully, it could be. The quicker I can wrap up Greece, the quicker I can cottage all of these lands and get my economy teching to space. What is this little suggestion shaves 3 or 4 turns off my totally finishing off Sooooo and that turns out to be the critical time game for my space ship to arrive before Dreylin's 3rd city hits legendary - how will I feel about that? How will Dreylin feel about that?

I guess at the moment, I don't have to worry about it because I don't have a tank anywhere near the commando promotion. But do I divert my tech to Military Science? What about warning Dreylin about a possible mostly harmless commando tank? He pops GGs like it is going out of style.

[Ruff_Hi]

Yes, that works. I did this in Epic 24. It also works to flip in and out of Serfdom, which gives the same effect, two turns of Serfdom worker speed for the cost of 1 turn out of Slavery or Emancipation.

Oh oh - see comments in the post above. As stated above, I plan to cottage everything in site in old Greece. Would I have seen this worker speed improvement option? Probably note - I would have just built more workers.

[kalin]

Ruff,

You have a point. I just posted that very quickly as the thought came in (because I recently used a commando HA in a private SP game). I admit I didn't look much at your code of conduct etc., it somehow seemed an ok thing to post. As you said, probably the only way to make sure you get no spoilerish information is to get no feedback. That's easy for me to do as it does take some time and energy to post stuff. I think we all have to run the risk of getting some slight spoilers and maybe some ideas you may not have gotten yourself, rather than having no interaction in the threads. That's at least my opinion.

For what it's worth, I think all the threads contain some help or some slightly spoiler information, so if ... I mean when you win, you won't need to worry it was because of my Commando promo suggestion.

Kalin

[Ruff_Hi]

• me: hey - how is pbem1 going?
  
• Dreylin: we'll see ... haven't opened the turn yet
  
• me: ok
  
• Dreylin: Got your note
  
• me: I think Soooo is gassed - either I had enough forces to outlast him
  
• Dreylin: Oh, and congrats on Sparta BTW
  
• me: or my paratrooper thrust at his capital successfullly split his forces
  sent in 14 - drill II, hill defense promo - all got killed
  but took up 2 cannons, 5 art and 14 other units to kill them all
  thx re Sparta
  
• Dreylin: So it's run him over time now?
  
• me: he can still build tanks and art
  so I have to be careful
  but - yes I think it is almost mop up time
  going to concentrate on his mines and his high hammer cities as my next target
  
• Dreylin: You said his Southern city is building a Transport?
  just that one?
  due next turn?
  
• me: don't have the game in front of me
  but have a pic
  Southern city - transport (2)
  not sure what Northern one was building
  can check when I get the game back
  going to do a Sooooo city tour to work out which cities to kill first
  
• Dreylin: I have to be a bit more careful of the Northern
  can't block it in
  Southern can be stopped from leaving once I sink his fleet
  
• me: how is your war going? I found that a large multi-unit stack was hard to kill
  but also a diversion helped
  
• Dreylin: My war is going pretty awfully at the moment
  
• me: you should try and plonk down a semi-stack in his back yard to get him to split his forces
  
• Dreylin: but I'm just loading the turn to see the damage
  
• me: ok
  good luck
  
• Dreylin: Hmmmm
  mh has some Fighters based in sooooo's lands
  
• Dreylin: did you notice where?
  
• me: yes
  in that southern city that is pusshing culture on Sparta
  It will be dead in 1 or 2 turns
  3 fighters
  I'll declare on mh before killing that city so I can kill the fighters too
  
• me: so - how did the turn play out?
  
• Dreylin: still going
  lost 20Tanks
  going to see how many of mh's units I can kill and still protect my attacking stack from reprisals.
  BTW, sooooo's fleet is much smaller now.
  
• me: did you declare on him?
  
• Dreylin: yep
  killed his 7Destroyers w/o losing a ship
  
• me: well - I will declare on mh next turn - see if I can scare those fighters away
  where were they?
  
• Dreylin: I can protect against them
  Carrier support
  
• me: Soooo has a carrier?
  
• Dreylin: the Dests?
  had moved N of Strassburg
  
• me: yes - where were Soooos destroyers
  
• Dreylin: on Ocean!
  
• me: oops
  bad move
  
• Dreylin: yep
  
• me: ok, I will not declare on mh until I can kill that city - will also kill his fighters if they are still there
  
• Dreylin: I meant that one of my Carriers can cover Sarmatian from mh's attacks
  
• me: oh ok
  
• Dreylin: so no need to declare
  - he'd probably use them on you if you did
  
• me: I have fighter protection just in case he wants to try that
  is your stack mixed?
  or pure tank?
  
• Dreylin: it will be
  
• me: infantry fighting anti-tank?
  
• Dreylin: or Paras
  we'll see
  
• me: yeah - they are strong buggers (24?)
  
• Dreylin: yeah
  but without the innate anti-gunpowder of Inf
  
• me: oh - so exactly the same
  
• Dreylin: vs. Gunpowder, yeah
  
• me: and anti-tank is gunpowder?
  
• Dreylin: but other promos worth more
  yeah
  
• me: sooooo was shreading my stacks with art
  my paratroopers took out 7 of those so they really helped
  
• Dreylin: yeah
  mh is almost out of Art
  
• me: soooo has 3 or 4 that were red-lined
  he is building some more
  hey - I finished Demo - ask for ti if you want it
  I am back on sitting on communism
  but I want to spend 1000g on upgrades so it will be a while be fore I turn tech back on
  might flip over to sit on Military Tradition - not sure yet
  
• Dreylin: I'll get Rocketry at EOT
  and also my next GP
  ~37% Artist
  
• me: rocketry brings SAM, Guided Missile, attack sub and nukes?
  
• Dreylin: yep
  
• me: guided missiles are really cool - unlimited number in cities
  and dirt cheap
  
• Dreylin: 1-shot deal though, right?
  
• me: yes - 40 hammers from CFC so even less
  but only have a range of 4 tiles
  great for defending - build them in your low hammer cities
  will have to watch for that from Sooooo
  
• Dreylin: needs Radio, doesn't it?
  
• me: actually 60 hammers
  they are str 40
  true
  so we can build them but they cannot!!
  
• Dreylin: yep
  
• me: I might build a half dozen and see if I can find a use for them
  
• Dreylin: against me maybe?
  
• me: only good for defending
  actually - that is not a bad idea - hold the nasty, mean Dreylin at bay with guided missles
  
• Dreylin: do they intercept Nukes?
  
• me: totally!
  I've been thinking about post DeTOG - I'll keep thinking and send you something when I'm closer to wrapping up Sooooo
  
• Dreylin: OK
  Rocketry opens up Apollo
  
• me: I know
  but I haven't time for it at the moment - have a war on
  
• Dreylin: and you have stated a Space goal
  I'm wondering whether if I see it built I have to stop trading with you
  
• me: well - put it this way ...
  I am not comfortable that I can just ignore Soooo and deal with him at my leasure yet
  

[Ruff_Hi]

[SIZE="6"]hey lurkers - yes you - you will want to read this!![/SIZE]

• me: I will not be starting apollo until I do feel comfortable with just mopping up Sooooo
  but do you want to start talking about dismantling DeTOG?
  
• Dreylin: I think we probably need to soon
  since you are probably in mop-up while I'm certainly not there yet
  
• me: agreed
  the elements of DeTOG that we need to revisit are:
  auto tech trading
  
• Dreylin: BTW, you're not building my Tower are you?
  
• me: trading of goods
  
• Dreylin:
  
• me: (no - and you aren't building my statue?)
  trading of gold
  
• Dreylin: I don't even have Demo!
  
• me: military support
  (so the answer is no then)
  hell - here is my thinking re the end of DeTOG
  once I have mopped up Sooooo
  I gift you all my offensive military units to help you mop up mh
  then we sign a permanent NAP
  you set about trying to land culture victory
  
• Dreylin: my Financial advisor just winced
  
• me: I go for space and we race each other
  but spying actions are totally ok (except for playing with civics and religion)
  it will be a little dull for the lurkers, but I am getting a little tied of modern warfare
  
• Dreylin: so you sabotage my culture buildings while I take out your SS parts....
  
• me: and I totally don't want to be nuked
  
• Dreylin: heh
  
• me: something like that
  
• Dreylin: should be quick to play
  
• me: a little like pingpong
  
• Dreylin: sounds reasonable
  
• me: think about it - we don't have to agree yet
  but we should discuss tech trading
  and trading of goods - when we are going to unwind those
  
• Dreylin: yeah
  we'l;l want to stop at some point
  ...make you research all the ones you need
  
• me: sure - no reason foryou to send all of those free hammers to me
  how about we stop swapping techs after the next trade (rocketry for demo)
  
• Dreylin: that would seem fair enough
  
• me: done
  and we cancel all of our resource trades after I have finished off Sooooo
  
• Dreylin: resources is next imo
  
• me: google chat is saying that you are missing some of my messages
  "and we cancel all of our resource trades after I have finished off Sooooo"
  but I think that we can discuss putting back some trades on a resource by resource basis
  
• Dreylin: ah
  I'm feeding you a lot of hammers
  
• me: totally
  
• Dreylin: which is fine by me while you're building units
  
• me: happy for that to continue but I don't expect that you are
  
• Dreylin: but you'll stop that before you finish off soooooo
  
• me: well - I want to finish himoff ASAP because the war is holding me in police state (WW)
  instead of Const or something else
  
• Dreylin: I'm happy to send you any spare resources that you don't have a domestic source of
  
• me: like aluminium!
  ok - that sounds totally fair
  
• Dreylin: but once you stop building units in most of your cities I'll want them back
  
• me: wait - even the resources that I don't have a domestic source of?
  
• Dreylin: Hmmm, think I got confused
  non-domestic source = OK
  domestic source = no additional
  
• me: spare iron, copper, coal, etc = NO WAY that is what I am expecting
  
• Dreylin: once unit-building is stopped
  yeah
  
• me: right - so if I don't have clams - you will always send me clams
  
• Dreylin: Hmmmm
  
• me: ok - maybe not a suchi resource
  hey - what if I have a spare fish - would you send me clams then?
  
• Dreylin: Clams is a bad example anyway ... I only have 1
  
• me: yeah - and I dind't want to say crabs
  
• Dreylin: heh
  I have spare Crabs
  
• me: oh great!
  well - it looks like we have an understanding
  
• Dreylin: so I would do a Crabs-Fish trade
  You want to formailse it?
  
• me: sure - you sent the formal note starting DeTOG
  
• Dreylin: still playing turn
  
• me: I'll send the formal disolution note
  
• Dreylin: OK
  
• me: and if you don't want all of those military units - just ask mh to kill them or delete them
  
• Dreylin: heh