Posts: 6,893
Threads: 42
Joined: Oct 2009
Good point concerning Vassalage. I've usually found its economic effects pretty weak, but in Huge map it might make a difference of similar magnitude to Bureacracy and we can do without hammer bonus in our capital.
Maybe the main selling point to me is that I've high hope of getting 3rd free GG soon so settling them + vassalage would give us access e.g. to triple promoted Longbows or CKNs (e.g. Amphibious for CKNs). Too bad I think we need to focus on something else than warring next.
Posts: 4,443
Threads: 45
Joined: Nov 2009
Well it always useful to have something in our pocket. +6 XP Knights would also be the most hilarious thing ever.
I suppose really the advantage of vassalage hammer-wise is in the deterrent effect of having highly promoted units. I would also think it would be somewhat hilarious if people started to get paranoid that we are in vassalage and throw out extra units themselves. We have other ways of getting more in the bank like spamming cottages absolutely everywhere. It'll also get us a prereq for CS. Then again Bureau is the standard pick for good reason. I dunno if the lurkers want to weigh in but feel free.
Also, I don't remember the particulars of the deal dividing WK's land but did we end up getting the peninsula city?
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
Posts: 2,417
Threads: 23
Joined: Oct 2009
antisocialmunky Wrote:Well it always useful to have something in our pocket. +6 XP Knights would also be the most hilarious thing ever.
I suppose really the advantage of vassalage hammer-wise is in the deterrent effect of having highly promoted units. I would also think it would be somewhat hilarious if people started to get paranoid that we are in vassalage and throw out extra units themselves. We have other ways of getting more in the bank like spamming cottages absolutely everywhere. It'll also get us a prereq for CS. Then again Bureau is the standard pick for good reason. I dunno if the lurkers want to weigh in but feel free.
Also, I don't remember the particulars of the deal dividing WK's land but did we end up getting the peninsula city?
High upkeep will makes the mighty B less appealing to a large sprwling empire as the civic maintenance is dependant on empire size/population. It is quite possible that the reduced civic maintenance coupled with reduced unit support will make up for +50% commerce in your capital.
The hammer side of things: Consider having C1 on every unit instead of a few extra units... Which army will win? The one with a few less troops but is 10% stronger most likely...
If there ever was a case for taking Vassalage over Bureau then this is probably it.
Posts: 4,443
Threads: 45
Joined: Nov 2009
Well yes, our promoed HA wiped out WK's HA stack to the unit in the first major engagement of the war.
I think they are both 'high' upkeep though except we get more free units.
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
Posts: 23,602
Threads: 134
Joined: Jun 2009
Both are high upkeep, but Vassalage gives you X free units (you can check in game by selecting the civic in F3 how many you would get, and then compare to F2) and +2XP/city. Bureaucracy just gives you the +50% commerce and hammers. There are economic reasons to use either.
Current games (All): RtR: PB80 Civ 6: PBEM23
Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6: PBEM22 Games ded lurked: PB18
Posts: 4,443
Threads: 45
Joined: Nov 2009
Quote:Okay - after finally tracking down sunrise, we propose that we settle 1W of the cows (no overflow with your city of Mycenae) and you can settle anywhere on the row with the pigs or the row 1 north of it.
How does that work?
Two other things
1 - do we just DMZ the part of the peninsula to the east? I don't think there's any food over there (unless there's seafood in the fog)
2 - Do you want to sign a short-term (10-15t?) NAP to ensure the validity of this arrangement? It might be awkward if we both agree to this distribution and then one of us attacks the other (like if you attacked our cows city or we attacked Knossos / Mycenae). It seems like signing this agreement at least implicitly has some sort of non-aggression in it, so it seems like it might make sense to formalize that a bit. Or if you're interested in longer term arrangements, we're open for that too.
Let us know
dan.
regoarrarr
zulu
So they want a 15 turn NAP.  I say give them 10.
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
Posts: 6,893
Threads: 42
Joined: Oct 2009
T133
Quiet turn. I decided not to attack. Some of the HAs near Knossos are wounded so I let them rest and positioned only cat near the city. Near Sparta I've only Bombard team. Hopefully I can take Knossos so that the HAs are freed to attack Sparta later.
![[Image: civ4screenshot1092.jpg]](http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2304/civ4screenshot1092.jpg)
![[Image: civ4screenshot1093.jpg]](http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3687/civ4screenshot1093.jpg)
My response to Rego:
Quote:
This all makes sense to me i.e
* Settling ok
* DMZ zone ok
* NAP ok. Lets say T145 i.e. 12T. (I'm ok with anything between 10-15T)
So we've a deal.
Posts: 6,893
Threads: 42
Joined: Oct 2009
Vassalage is 16 free units. Our capital is 43 commerce at the moment so Bureacracy wins slightly here and obviovusly hammers are bonus also. So economically CS is better, but not overly so, if we save something with building fewer units. I need to stop giving NAPs everywhere so others need to build troops also so that we could take advantage of this  .
Posts: 4,443
Threads: 45
Joined: Nov 2009
The treaty and going Vassalage looks good in my book. Gets us also the best defensive unit of the era too so it will be a blood bath if we get invaded PB2 Inca style (minus the whole, give our army to be back stabbed with it part lol). Plus we didn't actually get any happiness resources out of the war so some savings on MP units will help too.
In Soviet Russia, Civilization Micros You!
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”
Posts: 2,313
Threads: 16
Joined: May 2010
How many turns until you get Feudalism and revolt to Vassalage?
Completed: SG2-Wonders or Else!; SG3-Monarch Can't Hold Me; WW3-Surviving Wolf; PBEM3-Replacement for Timmy of Khmer; PBEM11-Screwed Up Huayna Capac of Zulu; PBEM19-GES, Roland & Friends (Mansa of Egypt); SG4-Immortality Scares Me
|
