[SPOILERS] Willem of Portugal (Dantski + Mukha)

[Dantski]

Note that Muk is now keeping lurkers informed BEFORE he tells me!

Lucky lucky you's

[novice]

Haha! Thanks Mukha, we feel privileged.

[Mukha]

T: hi, got a few min?
me: hey,
yeah
10:06 PM noticed you got IW this turn
nice work
T: thanks
was gonna ask
what's with all the whipping?
me: heh
T: are you coming for us or attacking exploit?
10:07 PM me: I'm not sure how much I can say
T: right, and here I was hoping I wouldn't have to build more spears
10:08 PM me: heh well you've probably also seen india's whipping as well
so i guess the cat's out of the bag there
T: I figured you're going for exploit
10:09 PM but then again, India still have to defend against that mayan chariot we just met with
so thought it could be for defense
me: yeah, think maya have only got the one chariot though, wish they would send it towards us, we don't have mayan contact yet
do you have contact?
oh wait you just said nm
need to read more
10:10 PM T: yes, got it just a few turns ago
so you're going to help India take out exploit?
me: not sure if you've had time to review our latest email
10:11 PM T: we have and it looks like being neutral won't cut it
me: right, yeah lot of civs are finding themselves having to choose now
10:12 PM it's also really hard to keep up tech wise without a bloc
although praetorians don't obsolete easily
T: well, with tech trading they won't last as long as without
10:13 PM though you still didn't answer me, are you helping DJ with Exploit?
me: hmm, but not sure if you can do much about that? you're better off just being with the tech leaders when it happens
T: or is that clasified?
me: heh well, there was a hint in our last email
10:14 PM I really don't know what sort of ties you have
T: well, that was about helping them defensively
ties with whom?
me: err not that hint
well exactly we don't know that question. if you joined our bloc we would know exactly
T: hehe
10:15 PM me: ahh well, i'm going to guess you have iron nearly hooked up? this appears to be balanced resources
so all strategic resources within 5 tiles of starting settler tile
10:16 PM T: we will have before too long
me: from what we've seen of others land all copper and horses at least are within 5 tiles
cool
T: 5-6 actually
10:17 PM me: so a while back actually i've been meaning to ask
you said in an email after dj incident that before that incident you were ready to give terms
or something along those lines
T: correct
me: did you want to share them?
10:18 PM T: our thinking was basically that we get supplied all techs researched by the alliance in return for using our military on non-alliance members
10:19 PM and then we wanted the option of having one more of our neighbours join
so that we'd have at least one safe side
me: oh right, well that's actually terms anyway. all allaince members have all techs
also you probably wouldn't be expected to either fund or research
all money could power army
10:20 PM or whatever you like to fund in SsS, mb they aren't praetorians
mb you guys just really like scouts
10:22 PM actually who am I speaking to btw?
this is Mukha
T: sandover
me: ahh right, do you do most of your team's diplo or do you share?
T: most
10:23 PM scooter does some as well from time to time but it's 95% me sending emails around
me: you have another s
umm square leg
T: yes
he's kinda busy with pbem 2 though
me: ahh right
that pbem2 looks like a fun game
10:24 PM T: I agree, but lets not spoil things for him by talking about it!
me: oh sorry were you going to post this chat
T: nah, but he might read it down the line
10:25 PM me: thanks for reminding me, always find myself about to post something spoilerish in our pb3 thread for other games
T:
me: so I hope you can give us a definite answer reasonably soon? that we can take to others.
10:26 PM we would like to get this sorted as soon as possible and we still don't have contact with all aliance members
it's annoying having to relay stuff
err, that's not me being annoyed at you. that's our incompetent scouting wars dying to barbs
10:28 PM actually it's really my own incompetence and dantski has now banned me from moving military units because of it heh
T: rofl
10:29 PM I'm pretty sure I can send you an official ruling later today
me: ok that would be awesome
T: we've been hoping for some sort of miracle splitting these bloody blocs for us but seems like that aint gonna happen!
10:30 PM me: heh yeah
tbh not keen on a bloc game
but that's the game type
damned if you don't
10:31 PM ok, so I'll speak to you soon then? unless there was something else you wanted to ask?
10:32 PM oh probably should say that egypt usually wants amount of gold saved, bpt at break even etc etc
T: well, just trying to figure out whether we're about to get attacked or not
me: err not by us, thought I answered that, but I don't want to say who.
10:33 PM T: right, so I have your word then that you're not coming for us?
me: who in the north do you have contact with btw?
T: maya and byz
met them both near india's border
me: oh, hmm
10:34 PM T: almost thought byz was about to attack india as well there
me: heh not sure how much of a word I can give without a NAP
although I agree with you there that I hate them
i think byz have the top soldier count
10:35 PM although mb in our case we could agree to one? with dantski's approval of course if that helps settle paranoia?
T: well, can you at least say that you do not have any current plans to send the units you whipped towards us?
me: heh no
T: right, I'll adjust our unit queues then...
10:36 PM me: that was me saying no current plans, or future plans, if you can make future plans without having a current plan
10:37 PM T: oh right
my bad
cool, could use a few more workers instead
me: how many you got?
T: not enough
but somehow one never seems to have enough!
10:38 PM me: yeah, when I'm in doubt now, I just queue a worker
10:39 PM ok good chat then, speak to you soon?
unless there was something else?
10:40 PM T: nope, though I can't say that I'm too happy about exploit biting the dust before someone elses hand than ours
me: heh well yet to see about that
10:41 PM except for those incans
10:42 PM do you talk to them much? or did i ask that already
nm, i better go anyway
T: we're helping each others meet people
10:43 PM did their quechua reach you yet?
me: yeah passed us by, but we had contact with them a while back
shortly after meeting you I think
T: oh, I got the impression they hadn't met you
10:44 PM me: you can check foreign advisor
tells you who has contact with who
T: they aren't very talkative, just send very swift messages
me: yeah, there's a few teams like that I've found
T: and what if I am too lazy to do that?
me: ok I'll see you later then
10:45 PM T: right, bye

Yes, I'm a stone cold liar. I really have no qualms about telling them we have no current or future plans. Lost count of how many times I've asked about NAPs, hell I even asked about one there and he ignored it. Here's a hint: there's no such thing as a unilateral NAP. That's not a pact, that's a tryst to be somebody's bitch.

Danstki will probably be pretty angry about this. Also, when I want to give the impression that I'm attacking somebody else I try to answer how we would answer if we were really planning on attacking somebody else. This is roughly how I would answer Rome if we really were going after France or Exploit, Rome couldn't be trusted with the exact truth. Although I think I probably overplayed the coyness.

Also, because of my incompetence with river crossings and in-game chat misclicks (arghh yes again! using gchat exclusively now and ignoring any chat in game) our plan went from having either 5 chariots attack EoT71 with another 2 the turn after or this:



To this:



So won't be able to attack their second city until t75 at the earliest. Good news is that HRE can be contributing a chariot that turn as well. Of course the first plan wouldn't have worked anyway if they hadn't roaded between cities or if there was an unavoidable river crossing.

Yeah, they have IW. I think we should go ahead anyway. Most number of workers they could have is probably 4-5 because they still can't work sheep. Will be a relief to see them found a new city T71orT72, but not before because then we could be pretty sure we wouldn't have to face a praetorian.

[Mukha]

Thought I would calculate the chances of Iron being within Rome's current borders. Based on the assumptions that it's balanced resources so all strategic resources are between 3 and 5 tiles from starting settler position and that Rome settled in spot.

Total Number of tiles between 3 and 5 tiles from capital = 96

Number of those that are with capital's cultural control = 12

Number of extra tiles that are within their second city's culture = 16 (based on 2nd city position of 3N4W of capital)

So a 28/96 or 29% chance that Iron is available immediately to mine.

Not sure if the balanced resources script also regulates how closely spaced different strategic resources can be. If the second city was settled for copper (HRE tells me they have copper) and there is some minimum distance between copper and iron then this would lower the chances for iron slightly. If there isn't a minimum distance then total number of possible tiles drops by only 1 (can't have iron on the copper tile) ie 27/96 or 28%.

So a 72% chance they need to settle a 3rd city which is why seeing a 3rd city founded is a better sign I think than not.

[Mukha]

me: hey you around?
Krill: I am now
me: had a couple rules questions actually
5:32 AM Krill: shoot
me: there's this damn mayan chariot floating around out there
now if they attack eot and claim second half of turn
can we still attack rome eot and claim second half with them?
Krill: ah
this is the entertaining part
me: we really want to stop tthem whipping
Krill: that isn;t in the rules
5:33 AM me: in which case. we may be better off just preemptively declaring war on maya
to claim second half of turn
also would prevent not being able to whip
should just allow double moves
5:34 AM so not sure what to do
Krill: You can hip during either part of the turn
*whip
me: well i mean it stops them declaring last second of a turn
and moving in with a chariot
Krill: yeah
me: and having a free hit without a whipped defender
Krill: have you met Maya?
me: no
5:35 AM but their chariot has to be awfully close
5:36 AM also, after grabbing second half of turn in a war, what's stopping someone from refusing to sign peace and essentially always have the element of surprise?
except for good faith rule mb?
Krill: Technically nothing
5:37 AM me: also
if someone ends their turn can the still move to declare after ending turn?
5:38 AM Krill: Technically speaking, it is not illegal
However
5:39 AM It is a fair point, and you should ask about that in public
me: should either allow double moves, or prevent people declaring within last hour
5:40 AM hmm, don't want to go public with our questions about starting two wars
Krill: I think it is important tbh
not just for now
but to clarify for the culture.
5:41 AM I think in the past it has been frowned upon, and reloads accepted
but nothing written
me: i've been watching maya and was thinking i would be safe this turn as long as I played after they ended turn
5:42 AM hmm ok, guess I'll have to figure out a way to put it in public thread
5:43 AM Krill: Just phrase it as a simple question IMO.

Wonder if a lurker could bring these questions up in the public thread?

[Reagan]

Wonder if a lurker could bring these questions up in the public thread?

Been there, done that, won't do it again. IMO, y'all (the players) should ask your own questions.

[novice]

If you phrase the question I can post it in the tech thread for you, Mukha.

[Mukha]

Here is what I would say if I were to post this myself. Don't worry about it novice, I'll ask later.

If a team is declared on in the second half of a turn can that team then declare on a 3rd party and move in the second half of a turn units involved in that action? If they can't declare or move in the second half of a turn after being involved in a war where they have to move in the first half wouldn't this encourage a lot of strange behaviour like preemptively declaring on a suspected soon to be agressor to claim the second half of a turn? If they can move in both halves with two separate wars, how would this be controlled?

Preemptively declaring with no actual immediate hostile agression intended also has other benefits as it lessens the surprise possible with attacks at EoT and always gurantees at least one whipped defender. Also, what's to stop a team from never signing peace and keeping one civ stuck with the first half of the turn for the rest of the game or until they are no longer a threat?

One last thing, can a civ declare with a unit move into rival territory after they have ended turn?

I guess one possible option to fix the need to declare in the second half of the turn is to always allow reactive movements on the turn of declaration say by disallowing a declaration in the last hour of a turn or waiting at least an hour before ending turn if the team is the last to play. I personally don't like this option at all though, as the defender already has far too many advantages and why I think allowing double moves is actually the balanced option.

Also, from Rome

Dear Cath Bruig,

I will get straight to the point. We still have not made any official agreement to join either CAN nor CANT, but we have decided that it is in our best interest to side with CANT. We would most certainly be in a better position short-term by joining your alliance, but looking at the moral side of things we prefer to side with the counter-alliance for the following reasons;

- 9 vs 7 is more fair than 10 vs 6.
- We do not like large tech blocs and CAN is the cause of their unwanted occurrance.
- We do not trust DJ's way of running diplomacy.
- Only one of the four CAN civs we have met is actually returning our emails.
- All four of the CANT civs we have met are responding to our emails, usually without much delay.
- The CANT civs express dislike for large tech blocs so we feel we can be among equals.

As you know we would have prefered a different alliance structure to take place, though the folly of trying to claim neutrality is obvious to everyone. So I suppose that we are now enemies. I could apologise for not allying with you but I do not believe that there is anything to apologise for. CAN is by definition the "bad guys" for anyone who do not want this large tech bloc gameplay so we get to (role)play the "good guys" from here on. I suppose there is no use trying to turn you against DJ and the rest of CAN, but you cannot deny that an 8 vs 8 situation would make things more exciting...


5:21 PM me: either way, I suppose attacking dantski is definitly out of question?
5:22 PM DJ: i wouldn't say it's out of the question
but less attractive to us


Regards,
Sandover
Team SsS

Lot of funny stuff in there, but I won't analyze it. Funny to think back to the tech trading poll though.

The CANT as Rome sees it:

Poll 14: Tech Trading -
*No Tech Brokering

14. No tech brokering.

Poll 14: Tech Trading -
*No Tech Brokering

Poll 14: Tech Trading -
*No Tech Trading

Poll 14: While we would prefer Full Tech Trading, we don't see that winning, so we vote for No Tech Brokering. First and foremost, however, we're AGAINST No Tech Trading

The CAN
Heh, how prescient:

Also vote against no tech trading.
Scenario #1: Start next to aggressive Rome: need machinery for a unit that can get odds on preats, or construction to have odds on a stack. Everything else is a losing proposition. Even if a player turtles and makes axes to defend with and can grind out a war, they aren't going to be able to tech. With NTT, that player has ZERO chance to win the game, or even play a reasonable game. Don't forget that this map is going to be crowded, with unrestricted leaders, so this scenario is almost certainly going to occur

Poll 14: Tech Trading -

*No Tech Brokering
Also, vote against no tech trading.

Poll 14: No tech trading

14. No tech brokering.

No Tech Brokering

Poll 14: Tech Trading -
*No Tech Trading

Ruff nails it, except I still don't think NTT is the way to go. I prefer a democracy game.

Poll 14: Tech Trading -
*No Tech Trading
...
I agree with your comments Krill ... however, with TT on, this game stops being about civ (the game) and all about democracy - how will you relate to your neighbours, how quickly you can form an alliance.

CAN is Egypt/India/Ottomans/HRE/Carthage/England/Aztecs/Portugal with Babylon/Mali maybe. 8 or 10

CANT is Inca/Rome/Byz/Maya/Sumeria with Babylon/Mali maybe. 5 or 7.

We're pretty sure on Babylon, just Mali and Babylon won't join without them. So that would make it a 10 vs 5, my kind of fight (as long as I'm one of the 10 holding the phone and uploading the video to youtube)

[pindicator]

Wow Mukha, did you know that India was going to have this type of scenario concerning their war declaration? I was wondering how you were going to ask the question without tipping off the suspicions of your neighbors but it looks like the ideal situation... as long as your questions don't get buried beneath the hostile exchanges between sunrise & exploit

[Mukha]

Yes and it's about to get worse. I haven't spoken to India but I think there's not only a Mayan chariot in Exploit territory but a Byzantine one as well. India needs to declare war on Byzantium as well and claim first half of the turn to prevent that Byzantine chariot moving and adding an extra defender to a city if it isn't already in there.

There are so many holes in the current rules, not even covering clear acts of bad faith. It's this obsession with always being given a chance to whip a defender even in the face of a 2 mover stack. People need to accept that until you get >500 culture you can often be hit of the fog with a 2 mover stack supported by workers without having a whip opportunity.