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mostly_harmless · May 5th, 2011, 06:05

spacemanmf Wrote:Is the city tile count just population based?

Yes. It's basically #citizen+#cities.
What else would you use?
I also know ( to some degree) how much landtiles each civ/city has. But I think that does not give a good indication of strength, because coastal starts get undervalued.
Currently Dazed borders contain 67 land tiles.
Krill 44.
Scooter 35.
Serdoa 34.
Myself 31.

Scooter's and Krill's numbers might be +/- 2tiles.

mh

spacemanmf · May 5th, 2011, 11:51

mostly_harmless Wrote:Yes. It's basically #citizen+#cities.
What else would you use?

I was just curious. For a brief second, I thought you had some sort of extra visibility! At some point it won't quite be right due to specialists, but fine at this stage. You can compare your tile count to food + production to judge average quality of tiles worked.

mostly_harmless · May 6th, 2011, 01:14

spacemanmf Wrote:I was just curious. For a brief second, I thought you had some sort of extra visibility!

Well, visibility into city centres would be very nice. I kind of missed out on that with both Serdoa's and Krill's capitals. Otherwise it would give me a very good idea of what they are building. Up to now, I only see Dazed 2nd city's tile. It has a granary already.

I got Krill's graphs now, which helped a lot in verifying my C&D tables. Turned out I got scooters teching wrong. He apparently went AH first before the The Wheel. Everything else still checks out with my numbers. Had Krill pretty much spot on.
The last turn is a bit puzzling, though. My current guess, is that both Krill and Serdoa lost a unit. From my latest eMails with Serdoa, I thought it went into a phoney war. Does not look like it.

That would explain, why Serdoa is so keen to secure his western flank.
To be honest, I'd rather have those two stop fighting this long distance war and Krill focussing on Dazed, as Dazed is getting quite a lead now and settled towards Krill as well.

Serdoa Wrote:Hi mh,

I thought I'll ask how it goes on your part of the world. For me it's still war with Krill, though that is more sort of a "nobody does ask the other for peace" I feel, then a real war.

Anyway, I wanted to ask you what you would think about a NAP - maybe till T100? As for the land split between us, I have mapped it completely and it seems there are mountains nearby which make for a nice border. What do you think about that?

Kind regards,
Serdoa

mh Wrote:Hi Serdoa,

it's going ok. I try to keep my myself away from all that early fighting.
I currently don't want to commit to a long term NAP. It's still early days, I feel.
I agree, that those mountains are conveniently placed in between us.

In the future I would be interested to open border, once trade routes become available. What do you think?

Kind regards
mh

Serdoa Wrote:Hey mh,

well, would you like to commit to a short term NAP? Like for the next 20-30 turns maybe? Just so that we both can expand peacefully? And what do you think about stopping to spend EP on each other? I did so already and I guess you should have visibility on my graphs as well now and we have nearly the same spending (47/48) so would that be ok with you?

Last: Does that mean a settling agreement around those mountains is fine for you? Or do I have to assume that your warrior next to my borders means you are not?

Kind regards,
Serdoa

mh Wrote:Hi Serdoa,

Stopping EP now is fine. Agreed.

As far as NAP and settling agreement is concerned I am not interested in committing to a NAP until borders are established, either by prior agreement or later by the actual siting of cities.
If you have a specific idea about the land division between us, please draw a little map. Obviously I am interested to come to a peaceful agreement.

As for the single warrior, don't worry. He is just updating my maps, as it was long time ago, I have been near your borders. I am trying to establish whether your army of Quechas is marching my way. And I want to see where your 2nd city went.

Regards
mh

can't sign up to a NAP and then getting a "bad" city settled in "my" lands.
There is one particular tile I don't want Serdoa to settle. If you go back to my map here, I am talking about the tile 1N of the northern Wine. It is on forested plains hill. in fact it is quite a nice city site grabbing Wheat, Wine, Sheep, being on a river and fitting in quite nicely with Serdoa's assumed dotmap.
If he settles there, my pink dot 1N of the gold is invalid, which would suck.
So my warrior is trying to establish where his 2nd city went and look out for any settling party. Serdoa just double-whipped, could have been a settler.

So, I will relax a lot more after I settle Gold City, which currently is planned to be around T46.

mh

mostly_harmless · May 6th, 2011, 01:55

And a chat with Krill:

So an exchange of 2 for 2. Let's see if I can fit this in with my numbers after the next turn.
Quite nice for me if my neighbours hack away at each other. Of course Krill being close to IW is not so good. But was to be expected. I guess his 3rd city will wait for Iron to be revealed.

mh

mostly_harmless · May 9th, 2011, 00:31

mostly_harmless Wrote:... Serdoa just double-whipped, could have been a settler.

I can relax a bit. Serdoa just settled his 3rd city, Machu Picchu. It went into the north to the coastal Pig/Horse site. So my Gold City is most likely a sure thing.

Worked tiles (#pop + #cities) T40:
Dazed: 12
Scooter: 10
Serdoa: 8
Krill: 8
mh: 8

I get to see scooter's graph end of next turn, which should help clear out one soldier point inconsistency.

mh

Dicorion · May 9th, 2011, 03:04

Would you be so kind and show us how you are working with data from graphs? I am always confused about inconsistency in graph data and demographics. All is about a one turn lagging of data available. In PBEM it is even more comlicated for me....

Hope will see "pink dot" city soon smile

mostly_harmless · May 9th, 2011, 05:25

Dicorion Wrote:Would you be so kind and show us how you are working with data from graphs? I am always confused about inconsistency in graph data and demographics. All is about a one turn lagging of data available. In PBEM it is even more comlicated for me....

Hope will see "pink dot" city soon

I am facing the same problems. The graphs seem to be lagging by one turn. But then again I am the first to play, so when I get my turn 41 save, everything I see are the final turn 40 graphs. However, my graph (just my) somehow must be shifted as well to match the actual demographics numbers.
The best way to do it, is to get the demographics numbers right every turn. And use the graphs only to confirm after a while. And only compare the graphs of your opponents. So I know I got Serdoas powergraph correct. Now that I have visibility of Krill's power graph I can check whether my Krill numbers from the demographs are correct by comparing them with Serdoa's. Makes sense?

At the current pace, we will see Gold City around the weekend, i.e. 6 turns or so.

I have a updated dotmap, but I have to clean up some of my RB attachments to free the space.

mh

Dicorion · May 9th, 2011, 07:20

Yeah, that perfectly makes sence. I am doing a lot of c&d in our small comunity PBEM. I am in the same situation playing first in every round. The best way to stay clear is to just wait to have graphs and demographics of every single turn and than do the maths. It leaves a blind spot though. Oh well.

Thank you for your explanation. I was hoping there is some kind of magic hidden from my sight lol

What I found very usefull is a spredsheet for moving units (especially workers), counting beakers/hammers ahead of time. This saved me a lot of time and "vasted" hammers. It is not working at all in singleplayer, but in this kind of game it helps a lot and I had fun doing it jive

mostly_harmless · May 9th, 2011, 10:08

Dicorion Wrote:The best way to stay clear is to just wait to have graphs and demographics of every single turn and than do the maths. It leaves a blind spot though.

Well, the idea is to actually not wait, but to know exactly what happened the current (pitboss) or last turn (pbem).
Once you have the graphs of everyone, the whole C&D becomes less important.
Knowing what everyone did in the first 20 turns is what makes it valuable, I think.

mh

mostly_harmless · May 10th, 2011, 01:20

Serdoa sent me a map with a proposed settling agreement.
Here is the original map I got from him:

Serdoa Wrote:Hi mh,

I have attached a map. Plain simple: Nobody settles on the red area. That makes sure that we both can get our resources without actually starting culture wars right away. The only unclear resource would be the pig in the north near the floodplains and I am fine with you taking it. Please let me know if you agree to that.

For my second city you have to go further east around my borders.

Kind regards,
Serdoa

Now before I go into detail, why this is not acceptable here some interesting things:
o Unless skilfully photoshopped this map is actually very up to date. Which means Serdoa has scouted very little, at least in my direction. He does not have visibility into my capital, although he can deduct from the borders where it is.
o He does not know where my 2nd city, Wolgast, is!
o He knows HBR and BW. Yep, I knew that already from C&D.
o There is a pastured pig hill at his capital, that I did not know. It is also shared with his 3rd city Machu Picchu, which is located 2N of the Horses.
o The Quecha in the screenshot is probably the one I saw in Machu Picchu just this turn.

Now, lets put in some more colors:
[Image: serdoalandsplitproposal.jpg]

Yellow is Wolgast, my copper city.
Light brown are the BFCs for Serdoa's capital and his 3rd city (2N of the horses, Machu Picchu).
The big red crossed box is his proposed no-settling zone. The little red crosses are tiles that are not valid for settling by game mechanics.
Green is the equi-distance line between our capitals.
Pink Dot, Green Dot, Purple Dot are actually planned city sites that reside inside the proposed no-settling zone.

So what does it all mean.
Well, the proposed no-settling zone is actually quite "fair" if one goes by the green equi-distance line. It extends a bit too much south. And that is already Krill territory down there anyway, so pretty meaningless. But that is point 1, it extends too much south.
The problem with the equi-distance approach is, that my lands to the west and south are rather limited and full of jungle. Serdoa on the other hand must have at least the same amount of space to his east towards scooter. Also I suspect he has more room to his north. So the proposed no-settling zone leaves me with too little room for expansion. That's point 2.
More importantly, and this is due to Serdoa's lack of recent scouting, Wolgast location means I can do nothing in the north-east anymore. Point 3.
Point 4, his proposed sharing of resources is not acceptable. I will at least try to get a shot at one of the wines with Pink Dot. I will tell him as much and see whether he assumes both Wines are his.
And of course I have no idea yet where Iron is.

So I will send him as an counter-proposal this:
[Image: serdoalandsplitproposal.jpg]

Same rules, no settling in the green box.

mh

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