WW37- For Whom the Bell Trolls

[Lewwyn]

Nice sarcasm Lewwyn. I was simply making a response to Novice's statement, and clarifying I wasn't freaking out, just surprised. Keep making a mountain out of that molehill though. Maybe if you actually looked at why I had a vote on him in the first place, you would understand why I responded to Novice like that. God forbid you actually do that much work right?

You realize that it doesn't matter what your vote reasoning was in the first place? If you were unhappy with your vote and other votes where you put your vote then change it or don't change it. I think what's actually more interesting is that you received two votes because of your reasoning for your vote on Agnes courtesy of Gaz and pindi. THEN you made your post here. See I do do my work Jabbz. And it seems to me you are acting surprised about the votes on Agnes as an excuse to move your vote because you are catching heat for voting for Agnes. How close am I Jabbz?

[Lewwyn]

I'll be back later today. Monday is my busiest day of the week. 8 hours of class.

[Jabbz]

Not worried at all actually. I responded to both of them, and neither argument was overly substantial to start with. Since that post, neither of them have posted anything, and I assume they will move their vote upon their return. You however, seeking an excuse to jump on a bandwagon is a nice scum tell. Are you just looking to muddy up the water looking for a reason to push a vote later today, or another day, or are you trying to save Agnes as a fellow scum? Either way, you're going after nothing, and you know it.
Lewwyn

[Agnes The Orphan]

Delaying claiming is of course useful for maintaining flexibility. But that's not the point. The point is that it's uncomfortable for scum to do a claim without having seen any townie claim, how they claimed, and how that claim was received. That's just basic psychology. I still think you not seeing this feels insincere.

Ooookay. If you say so. If I as scum have a claim given by mod that won't hurt my position, and townies want me to claim, I have no compunctions about doing so, personally. I mean, I might still hold off if it's consistent with my town-persona (a la results in WW34), but I wouldn't be afraid or uncomfortable about doing so - maybe if I'd never played before, but not at this point.

I mean, most of those points seem recipes for being uncomfortable if one has never seen anyone claim before. I don't see "how townies claim", for example, as a) being something with much consistency to it but also more importantly b) being something that varies from game to game. How would you claim this game any different from a normal one?

Maybe I'm just a weird player. But I'm not seeing it, myself.

I haven't been monitoring your forum activity, but at any rate, how is that relevant to my vote? I'm criticizing the content of your posts, not their frequency.

I meant that at the point we were at, it was a hit on frequency. The only chance I'd had was before pretty well anything interesting had happened, and when I came back I was largely distracted elsewhere. How much content did anyone have at that point, literally 3 (of my) posts into the game?

And lo, from beyond the horizon appears a train, and it's preparing to mow down Agnes. I mean seriously though, where the hell did that come from? In 3 pages we went from one prodding/point making vote on Agnes to four votes?

I don't like this post.


Still catching up.

[Agnes The Orphan]

Not exactly rethinking, but even in a role madness game D1 mass claim is far from guaranteed to out scum; it's probably better than not doing a mass claim, though it means frontloading a lot of risk onto the selection of who should claim first. I wouldn't go so far as to say that scum would welcome it either, since it's entirely possible they get one or more of their members caught out.

I suppose if we don't have anything to go on soon (not feeling strongly about Agnes or novice as scum), having one or two people claim wouldn't be a terrible idea. Looking back over your posts you didn't quite argue for a mass claim today. I personally would not prefer a meta where Day 1 claims are expected to happen. In this case where we have a light Day 1 it might be a good idea.

How would a mass claim out scum?

I really don't get why this is an assumption. Back in WW34, a mass claim Day 1 would've been absolutely 100% the right play. That was a game in which people's claims and roles gave us real knowledge about others, and in which the scum did not have any safeclaims. I still can hardly believe that we managed to forestall that occurring.

Here, though, for some reason people are treating it as if it's the same situation - the same arguments of "mass-claiming would help, but let's not because it would be boring" are coming through. Suppose that we have a simplistic role-structure, where only roles A and B can occur. What do we learn by knowing that player X has role A, and player Y has role B, and so on? What does that tell us about their scumminess, when roles are randomized independent of alignment and everyone has one?

Scum aren't going to lie - why should they? If we assume the rules aren't lying to us, what do they have to lose by telling the truth?

I'm genuinely confused.

[Agnes The Orphan]

I agree with Lewwyn. Jabbz's drawing attention to the fact that he doesn't like my wagon feels scummy as hell, especially when combined with the way he's been tip-toeing around his vote on me for a while. The way he talks about my train like his reasoning is why people are voting is weird as well.

[Lewwyn]

Not worried at all actually. I responded to both of them, and neither argument was overly substantial to start with. Since that post, neither of them have posted anything, and I assume they will move their vote upon their return. You however, seeking an excuse to jump on a bandwagon is a nice scum tell. Are you just looking to muddy up the water looking for a reason to push a vote later today, or another day, or are you trying to save Agnes as a fellow scum? Either way, you're going after nothing, and you know it.
Lewwyn

No actually I don't think I'm going after nothing. There is definitely something in the way you are acting that is different from last game. You assume they will move their votes? That's pretty presumptuous. I think you're Looking for a reason to move off of Agnes and found one in me. I Simply think you are suspicious. You are the one saying I'm looking for a bandwagon, looking to muddy the waters or trying to save Agnes? Lol did you just pick four reasons for possible motivation for voting you out of the scum bag? It looks like you are grasping g at straws for reasons to vote for me.


On my phone fyi

[Jabbz]

I'd love it if you could point to the place where I said I didn't like your wagon. Oh wait, that's right, you cant because I didn't say it. Try not putting words in my mouth Agnes. My observation was that I had to determine whether or not I was going to stay on you. This was something that had to be determined because, as I said before, my vote on you was about making a point, and I hadn't changed off of you yet because there was no one else scummy at that point, due to pretty limited content. Once I realized you had 3 more people on you, I had to go back and read exactly what led to those decisions, something I had simply skimmed over before due to being a little busy.

Also, I never said, or even implied that my vote was why people were on you. Again, stop putting words in my mouth. Try sticking to the facts, they will get you further, and make you look less scummy in the process.

[Lewwyn]

That's funny jabbbz it certain seems to me like this:

And lo, from beyond the horizon appears a train, and it's preparing to mow down Agnes. I mean seriously though, where the hell did that come from? In 3 pages we went from one prodding/point making vote on Agnes to four votes?

Is an indication you didn't like he train.

[Mattimeo]

Post built while reading through, might double up on a few points.

To elaborate, we've played almost 40 games here, we've never had a day one mass claim, and as far as I'm aware the scum have never wanted one. So why would they want one in this game?

Mattimeo

Please cite where I stated that scum actively want a d1 mass claim.
That such a claim would function solely as a priority list of nightkill targets, sure, but last I checked that does not include the phrase "scum want a d1 claim" or any derivatives thereof.

Agnes has already covered the fact that precisely 0 of those 40 games of precedence are relevant in this situation, one of role madness AND disassociation of roles / alignment.

That's always the question right? If Zak has a damn good town power role, he is going to be potentially hurt more than scum would be by being forced to claim. Scum can lie, and have a group to work with on framing their lie. Town has to cop to exactly what they are, because if they don't, later on if they change their story they will be killed. If they have a good role, they are going to be killed anyway because scum now knows a valuable target.

Pretty much this, too, except that scum can also cop to their actual roles as well, and not expect too much flak.

Going to get a bit meta here:
If roles are going to be distributed disregarding alignment, they have to be crafted in such a way as to not be entirely useless or gamebreaking on the wrong side.
As such, many of the common 'scum' roles are either not going to be included, rolled into other roles or were equally likely to be town aligned anyway.
For instance, Godfather makes no sense if the recipient is town. It would be a vanilla villager in a role madness game. Why include it when there's a ~70% chance (assuming a setup along the lines of 3:10 or 3:1:9) of it not being a fun role at all?
By the same reasoning, Strongman basically has to be rolled into a Vig power. What's the use of your shots being unblockable if you have no shots?
Anything else - roleblocker, role cop, etc - is already sufficiently neutral that you might not even get flak for it in a regular closed role madness game.

From this, we can conclude that there are not going to be any roles that scream "scum here" - and thus, there is little reason for the scum to lie in a roleclaim, because they are not going to be accused based on what their role is.

Again, if I were scum and drawing heat on day one, I would prefer if "claims are bad" is the established meta.

This, on the other hand, is entirely disingenuous. Where is anyone saying that? At best, people are saying that in this particular instance, one which has been noted several times to be unique (and indeed using the fact that it *is* unique to push the point), mass claiming is more detrimental to town than otherwise.
You really don't get off saying people are pushing a general anti-claim meta when several of the main proponents of such being bad in this particular game take care to point out their reasoning is only valid for this game.

How would a mass claim out scum?

I really don't get why this is an assumption. Back in WW34, a mass claim Day 1 would've been absolutely 100% the right play. That was a game in which people's claims and roles gave us real knowledge about others, and in which the scum did not have any safeclaims. I still can hardly believe that we managed to forestall that occurring.

Here, though, for some reason people are treating it as if it's the same situation - the same arguments of "mass-claiming would help, but let's not because it would be boring" are coming through. Suppose that we have a simplistic role-structure, where only roles A and B can occur. What do we learn by knowing that player X has role A, and player Y has role B, and so on? What does that tell us about their scumminess, when roles are randomized independent of alignment and everyone has one?

Scum aren't going to lie - why should they? If we assume the rules aren't lying to us, what do they have to lose by telling the truth?

I'm genuinely confused.

^ This

Shadeun needs a little more contribution than "can't wait" when we're already halfway through the first day.