Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

[Bobchillingworth]

I don't think that physically assaulting a minority or openly espousing claims of genetic inferiority should be the bar for racist conduct. Most racists aren't klansmen or skinheads, and there's different degrees of prejudice.


That said, I'm not convinced racism was the primary motivating factor in the Brexit vote. As an outside observer, it seems to me one of the main issues was a conflation by much of the public of "experts" with "elites" & subsequent dismissal of both, a form of anti-intellectualism which I personally find deeply disturbing. That and the EU was a convenient scapegoat for an economic malaise which most politicians underestimated.

[Twinkletoes89]

This is an interesting perspective I've seen raised about racism and the Brexit vote.

52% of voters are in no way at all all racists. But now those who did vote on racist grounds are emboldened in thinking that 52% of the country is with them.

So it remains a small population of very horrible people, but the vote has, indirectly, been an encouragement to them to act. That's why the incidence and reports of these horrid actions and abuse is certainly higher than it was previously, even if the number of actual racists has not changed.

And Bob, you are dead right on the importance of anti-intellectualism in this fight, which is sadly being replicated across the world by especially conservative or right wing groups. They conflate both side's figures and opinions as equally valid regardless of the wide difference in academic value and accuracy.

[DaveV]

I think the Brexit and Trump phenomena are both about control. Many people seem to feel the world has gotten too complicated, that their lives are ruled by faceless bureaucrats, and that the "good old days" are slipping away. So they jump at simple bumper sticker style solutions: take the 350 million we give to the EU and spend it on national health care instead. Build a wall to keep out all the foreigners (and make them pay for it!). Take our country back.

Then everyone is surprised to find that things are more complicated than that.

[Jkaen]

I think that did feature in some peoples thinking, probably the older people. The return to 'the good old days' when we ruled the British empire alone rather than just being a (big) part of a pseudo empire

[Gazglum]

I should have realised that a forum for people who roleplay the rise and fall of empires would be the place for reasonable discussion about the rise and fall of the United Kingdom!

I work at a very globally focused London university, so of course I am in the Remain bubble. Waking up on Friday I felt total disbelief, that something so historic was happening right here, right now. It’s been a very strange five days since.

The worst thing about the referendum is that almost nobody with a media platform actually made the positive case for Europe. I love Europe, and I think that a closer political union is probably the right thing for the continent. And the EU is maybe the most idealistic political project in the world at the moment. I know its flawed, but there is so much hope bound up in it.

But British politicians are so used to using the EU as a scapegoat that they couldn’t bring themselves to actually come out strongly in favour of it. So instead, the Remain campaign droned on about how we had to put ideology aside and vote to Stay In just so the country didn’t lose money. And sure, that was true, and the UK has lost a bunch of money this week. But if I was philosophically opposed to the EU, that kind of small-minded reasoning would have just made me double-down on my desire to Leave. And the stupid thing was that the Remain Campaign was talking as if everyone has done as well out of globalism as they, and I, and probably most people on this board have. But if you’ve seen your culture and job security go downhill for a generation, then you might not be so open to the money argument.

There’s a lot of anger and disbelief in London, which I understand. A lot of people wanting to just cancel the result of the referendum because ‘people were stupid and didn’t know what they were doing’. That attitude scares me a lot because, one, it’s just blatantly immoral, and two, it shows no comprehension of how angry and disenfranchised people must have been to do this. And when so many people are saying that they are losing hope in the democratic process, then to openly prove their worst fears could lead to some very dark and scary futures.

But I still want to stay in the EU, and so do almost all our politicians. So I am holding out hope that there is a way we can walk this back without just tearing up the referendum result. I guess by having a General Election on this issue, and making a real argument, now that we have a better idea of what leaving actually means. Otherwise I guess Scotland and Northern Ireland are gone, and we’re back to an English Empire circa the Tudors.

The really sad thing is that the EU and Britain now have diametrically opposed interests, however well-meaning all involved are. Britain wants to hold together and do well, and of course I want them too as well, but then they will be an inspiration for other wavering EU countries. So for the EU to hold together, which I want it to, it has to hope that Britain falls apart. And if the EU does break down, then there are a lot of scary Nationalist parties waiting in the wings, and they aren’t just going to offer +2 happiness to cities with barracks.

Some silver linings though – I am kind of in awe of how genuinely democratic this is. The people of England who feel disenfranchised overturned the will of almost the entire economic, cultural and political elite, which I didn’t think could happen anymore. Plus, as others say, this could potentially help the EU in the long run if its whiniest member has left the club. I also think it’s too soon to say how much worse this is really making racism. Grieving Remainers (of whom I count myself one) have been scouring the country for evidence of our new racist state, but I’m not sure if it’s worse than you would get on any normal week in Britain.

And for all the other Europeans on the boards, please don’t think that the British don’t care about you. For the people who did vote Remain, I think we’re probably one of the most pro-European generations in history. And even a lot of the people who voted Leave like Europe very much, they just didn’t agree with the system, which I can sympathise with.

Sorry for wall of text, this is all I’m thinking about right now!

[Gazglum]

Oh, and in case anyone remembers my past and is confused, yeah I’m Australian, but I was born here and have been working in the UK two years now, so I’m starting to feel pretty local. But I admit that I’m also an immigrant taking people’s jobs and driving up rental prices.

[Brian Shanahan]

You guys are more than welcome as the 51st state if going it alone proves too much .

Darrell

In terms of US strategic thinking brexit removes any need to keep up any pretense of there being a secial relationship. Now that the UK's main international influence is gone what need does the US have for it?

Well, the United Kingdom and United States are major trading partners. The United Kingdom also seems to be somewhat more willing to apply force to international situations than much of the European Union (e.g. the 2003 Iraq war), a trait the United States has found useful. The United Kingdom remains one of the most important members of NATO, as well as a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council. On economic, military, and diplomatic grounds, then, the United States and United Kingdom would do well to retain as close a working relationship as they have now (which, of course, predates British membership in the European Union, and the European Union itself, in the first place).

(I'm not sure I support the Brexit, and I'm even more concerned about the possible consequences for British unity; I just wanted to answer the question.)

On trade, yes the US is selling a lot to the UK. On war, the UK armed forces have been massively atrophied and many essential functions have been transfeered to private companies more interested in gouging than doing what they were paid to do.

As it stands the UK lost its best reason for having the special relationship.

[Brian Shanahan]

It was just a referendum and completely elite-opposed; over-under for anything actually happening practically?

Very unlikely the EU allows them to backpedal. They're already pushing hard for the UK to expedite beginning the formal process of withdraw. They have to make an example of them, lest these events (and attendant market panics) become semi-regular occurrences. Plus it'd be incredibly politically risky for UK "elites" to ignore the referendum, the measure passed with a convincing level of public support and high voter turnout. Nigel Farage would reap an incredible amount of capital.

A less than 4% differential isn't all that convincing, especially when there's good evidence that a lot of voters didn't fully understand the issues at hand, and also that the protest vote against the government was also likely to be high.

[Brian Shanahan]

Cameron said he won't trigger article 50, so it'll be for Boris (please god no) or whoever succeeds him (mostly pretty worrying too) in a couple of months to do it. One desperate straw is that before the election Farrige was saying he'd demand a second poll if he lost by less than 10%. Unfortunately I don't see how it would be possible, but we can hope .

From my pro-euro Bristolian bubble it looks like a lot of people have been convinced the reason they don't get paid as well as they think they should be is because of migrants, membership fees and red tape. Personally I think they should blame austerity, mechanisation, stupid expensive wars, globalisation, tax evasion and our lack of controls on monopoly businesses, but as an old leftie hippy I would say that .

I'm looking at the situation and I'm becoming increasingly convinced that a lot of the leading brexit Tory MPs don't actually want to leave the EU. For them going against Cameron was simply a cynical jockeying for power within the party.

[Brian Shanahan]

Now that the UK's main international influence is gone what need does the US have for it?

Pretty sure that 'need' doesn't describe our foreign policy. When's the last time you heard someone say the US is too focused on realpolitik, not idealistic enough?

Last time I was talking to somebody looking at the actuality of US foreign policy. There's bern at most two times in US history where its foreign policy wasn't based on what was then perceived as its own interest, with no regard for right or wrong.