[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[Adlain]

On a separate note, I noticed that Cull’s thread received several posts yesterday.

If he hasn’t already, please try and get him to explain why he vassalised.
I would be interested in reading that at the end of the game.

I already know part of the reason: he told me a while ago that he felt he didn’t have a chance at winning and at best might be able to manage third or fourth.
But how he came to the reasoning that vassalising was the best means of achieving that (ignoring my repeated offers, reminders and demonstrated past intent that I was willing to help him), is beyond me.

Done and answered (dont think that is spoilerish)

[BCAgamer]

Mmm. Cookie.
So, what is Operation ATM?

[Maksim]

Twenty four centaurs - very impressive, Pocketbeetle!

A couple of questions:

If Iskender decides to stay neutral and signs a NAP, will you be looking to continue the military build-up, or alpha strike Bob straight away?

What's your strategy for attacking cities - do you plan to simply throw centaur bodies at +50% defenses, and hope their withdrawal chances save a few? Or is there more strategy to this?

Thanks!

[darrelljs]

So, what is Operation ATM?

8 tiles with Engineering and Raiders = dead Hippus capital (?).

Darrell

[Ilios]

8 tiles with Engineering and Raiders = dead Hippus capital (?).

Darrell

Twelve tiles with Sprint actually...

Pb, thanks for keeping this thread so entertaining!

<Ilios, checks spelling, stone drunk, and believes no mistakes were made>

[The Reverend Doctor]

Hey PB,

Since you don't spend enough time making these awesome updates already... feel like schooling a FFH noob in what the 'later' religions can do? I seem to stick to one of the early ones in most of my games and haven't really explored the pros and cons of the ones later down the tech tree.

Especially in regards to Council of Esus (is that the name of the religion that Deception founds?!) and Empyrean (which Iskender adopted in the last few turns).

[Darkmantle]

If Iskender makes the wrong decision. You need to send him a demotivational with a picture of a burning city and the words.

SIRIAN SAYS
You chose unwisely.

I made one but I can't get it uploaded and able to show.

[pocketbeetle]

One way or another, the Hippus issue gets settled tomorrow

...or not.

Hey Cull, do you have the turn?

Cull didn't play his turn yesterday, and by the time it reached Iskender again, it was so late that he just played it and understandably went straight to bed.

So now the turn is stuck with me until I can catch Iskender...

Guys I'm on the road tomorrow. I'll play and send my turn about 10PM.

...and he's away tomorrow.


I've opened up the save and flown one of the hawks over (got a minus gold event also, yuck), here's what it's seen:



Looks pretty much the same.
He hasn't made any drastic responses to me researching Engineering, which is good.
That Radiant Guard appearing is interesting, I thought he wanted Empyrean for Rathas?

Hopefully I can have that chat with Iskender tomorrow.
Until then, the rest of the units stay unmoved.

.

[pocketbeetle]

Twenty four centaurs - very impressive, Pocketbeetle!

Not really, wish I had more.
I suppose 24 is nearly equivalent to 2k hammers though, so could be enough for the task at hand.

A couple of questions:
If Iskender decides to stay neutral and signs a NAP, will you be looking to continue the military build-up, or alpha strike Bob straight away?

I think it's a bit too late to be alpha striking the Calabim, which is why I'm possibly being overly strong with the Hippus.
Saying that, I do have a couple of ideas however, and will consider them if Iskender agrees.

For the near future, the two military pumps in Kwythellar and KK will be churning constantly (GotN excepted), while Caledor goes wonder happy.
Avelorn needs a couple more infra buildings, but will be on Priest/military duty also.

What's your strategy for attacking cities - do you plan to simply throw centaur bodies at +50% defenses, and hope their withdrawal chances save a few? Or is there more strategy to this?
Thanks!

Preeetty much.
It's not as bad as it sounds though.

What would happen is that the CAs produced in Caledor and Avelorn (ie with 4xp, 1xp from next promotion) would promote flanking and be sent in first against the top defenders.
With immunity to first strikes, 1-2 first strikes minimum on the raider promoted ones, and 55% withdrawal (base 35 + 20 from flanking), they'd have a better than coin flip chance of surviving and are pretty much guaranteed to get a hit or two in.

Once knocked down, the 6xp Combat II or recently promoted Cover CAs would get sent in to finish the job.

8 tiles with Engineering and Raiders = dead Hippus capital (?).
Darrell

Twelve tiles with Sprint actually...

Yes agree.

It's 9 tiles from KK to ATM.
As an additional bonus, one sprint means a range of 12 tiles, which is the distance from KK to Radonnar.

The Raider CAs are all sitting in KK, it's only the non Raider CAs that are 1SE.
The non raiders are placed there to
a) bulldoze that archer fortified enroute to ATM
b) move on Urgortheth.
...both of which should be just in range.

Pb, thanks for keeping this thread so entertaining!

You're welcome Ilios, and I'm glad it is.

Hey PB,
Since you don't spend enough time making these awesome updates already... feel like schooling a FFH noob in what the 'later' religions can do? I seem to stick to one of the early ones in most of my games and haven't really explored the pros and cons of the ones later down the tech tree.
Especially in regards to Council of Esus (is that the name of the religion that Deception founds?!) and Empyrean (which Iskender adopted in the last few turns).

I'll definitely try and get round to it.

If Iskender makes the wrong decision. You need to send him a demotivational with a picture of a burning city and the words.

SIRIAN SAYS
You chose unwisely.

I made one but I can't get it uploaded and able to show.

If you've made one, you should be able to upload it with imageshack.

However if it does come to war, and I do manage to raze his capital, I should think Iskender would be feeling a bit sore.
So I think taunting would be a bit harsh.

.

[pocketbeetle]

News just in - WAR

Here's the chat: (and yes I know I come off as rather pushy, I'm just annoyed and confused as to why Hippus relations seem to have degraded so fast.)

(9:11:50 PM) Iskender: hi Pb. I've been off line all day today (travelling back to home town). i should be pretty busy tommorow as well. maybe we could chat on wednesday or try to work something out via emails?
(9:15:56 PM) pocketbeetle: Hi iskender
(9:16:35 PM) pocketbeetle: Well, not really. I really need to press you for an answer re: alliance vs calabim
(9:16:44 PM) pocketbeetle: Can't say I havent been patient
(9:19:32 PM) Iskender: i would really like to stay neutral in that conflict
(9:20:05 PM) pocketbeetle: I kinda guessed you'd say that.
(9:20:09 PM) pocketbeetle: Oh well, okay I understand
(9:20:25 PM) pocketbeetle: problem is, I feel like I have to try and do something about the Calabim
(9:20:46 PM) pocketbeetle: You haven't told him btw that I'm thinking of attacking, that I've approached you have you?
(9:20:58 PM) Iskender: no
(9:21:02 PM) pocketbeetle: cool
(9:21:17 PM) pocketbeetle: thing is, for me to try and take them on, I need to feel secure about my borders
(9:21:56 PM) pocketbeetle: So I'd like to sign a long term NAP, at the very minimum
(9:22:02 PM) pocketbeetle: Would that be okay?
(9:22:37 PM) Iskender: how long?
(9:23:01 PM) pocketbeetle: Until the Calabim are eliminated
<<pause>>
(9:23:43 PM) pocketbeetle: that's not a problem is it?
<<another pause>>
(9:24:25 PM) Iskender: how about we make it an indefinite nap with a cooldown period?
(9:25:05 PM) pocketbeetle: mmmm. no thanks.
(9:25:06 PM) pocketbeetle: Lets run through the thought process here Iskender
(9:25:18 PM) pocketbeetle: You want to remain neutral, while Bob and I fight, correct?
(9:25:45 PM) Iskender: yes
(9:26:05 PM) pocketbeetle: Okay that's fine. I understand, I've got no problem with it.
(9:26:21 PM) pocketbeetle: But that means, you don't intend to take part, and you certainly dont intend to attack me yup?
(9:26:49 PM) pocketbeetle: So therefore, a nap lasting until the Calabim are eliminated means either I win, they're gone, or they win, I'm gone
(9:27:21 PM) Iskender: that's why i'm in for the nap. but not for hundreds of turns. i've made that mistake with the calabim
(9:28:44 PM) Iskender: also, if you succeed in eliminating them and nap me and selrahc the game is over
(9:29:21 PM) pocketbeetle: That makes no sense that last line. I'm offering a nap until the Calabim are eliminated. If the Calabim are eliminated the nap ends
(9:29:44 PM) pocketbeetle: and or can be renegotiated
<<long pause>>
(9:30:30 PM) pocketbeetle: I don't see the problem Iskender. Either you intend to remain neutral or not?
<<very long pause>>
(9:32:26 PM) Iskender: let me rephrase it: if you succeed in defeading vampires then you'll be so strong that our nap won't matter
(9:32:44 PM) Iskender: i'm not going to make a commitment for the rest of the game
(9:32:57 PM) pocketbeetle: nonsense. I'll have the same number of cities as now and at best a half dead army
(9:33:29 PM) pocketbeetle: Its if the Calabim win that you'd have to worry, but I've already made you a offer in that direction, and you've said you're not interested
(9:34:17 PM) pocketbeetle: It's not for the rest of the game, it's until the conlfict between the Kuriotates and Calabim gets resolved
(9:34:22 PM) Iskender: not at this stage. i'm stepping on thin ice here
(9:34:28 PM) pocketbeetle: a conflict you are telling me, you don't want to get involved in
(9:35:04 PM) pocketbeetle: I can't go to war if my neighbours won't sign NAPs and make me feel secure on my borders
(9:35:19 PM) Iskender: i want to stay out of it at the moment.
(9:35:26 PM) pocketbeetle: -for the duration- of the conflict, not just a short term NAP
(9:35:28 PM) Iskender: i want to sign a nap
(9:35:57 PM) Iskender: i signed a nap for 100 turns and it hurt me a lot
(9:36:06 PM) Iskender: i'm not going to make that mistake again
(9:37:16 PM) pocketbeetle: Final answer?
(9:38:30 PM) Iskender: i'm offering a cooldown period. not a short one. 10 turns maybe?
(9:39:16 PM) pocketbeetle: 10t.... We're not even in the same ball park here I'm afraid
(9:39:36 PM) pocketbeetle: I'll go as low as a NAP for 100 turns, that's my absolute lowest
(9:40:15 PM) pocketbeetle: including a term that if the Calabim get eliminated before then, it ends
(9:40:22 PM) Iskender: that's a lot of time. i think the game will be resolved much sooner
(9:41:09 PM) pocketbeetle: Not if it's just me and Bob fighting, while everyone else stays neutral
(9:42:36 PM) Iskender: it's unlikely that you'll gradually wear yourselves down. i guess one side will win decisively
(9:42:56 PM) Iskender: and at that point the game will be be close to resolution
(9:43:02 PM) pocketbeetle: and given that it's my four cities vs 3 civs, it's likely to be me losing
(9:43:40 PM) Iskender: you're vs 1 civ
(9:44:00 PM) pocketbeetle: Bob has already vassalised Cull, so any war vs Bob is vs Cull also, and Sareln will be close behind
(9:44:22 PM) pocketbeetle: My math is poor, but I count 3 civs
(9:44:51 PM) Iskender: i doubt they'll fight for the vamps
(9:45:04 PM) Iskender: sareln will do scouting and that's it i guess
(9:45:36 PM) pocketbeetle: Maybe, maybe not. Hopefully I'll find out. But to do so, I need a NAP with my neighbours first, which is why we're having this conversation
(9:45:54 PM) pocketbeetle: Need an answer Iskender. My offer is 100t or until the Calabim are eliminated
(9:46:06 PM) pocketbeetle: I won't go lower
(9:46:29 PM) Iskender: why not? 100 turns at this stage is a lot of time
(9:48:08 PM) pocketbeetle: I don't see why this is not an automatic yes for you. If you then follow it up by extending your NAP with Bob (almost certainly he'll agree if I'm threatening him), you can go military light and happily tech while neutral
(9:49:29 PM) pocketbeetle: I really shouldn't be having to try this hard...
(9:49:39 PM) Iskender: i would be boxed with long naps with both neighbors
(9:50:10 PM) pocketbeetle: ...who are both fighting. That's the decision you've just told me you've made. To stay neutral and be boxed in until one dies
(9:51:33 PM) Iskender: i said i don't want to get involved right now. i don't want to be a happy builder if one of you runs away with the game
(9:51:49 PM) Iskender: i don't want to backstab you either. that's why i'm offering a warning period
(9:52:13 PM) Iskender: you want to be safe in your conflict with the calabim. you don't need a 100 turn nap for this
(9:52:42 PM) pocketbeetle: ...So if my war vs the Calabim goes well, my units are on the other side of the continent, then I get a happy message from the Hippus saying "look out, we've decided to go to war with you!"
(9:53:11 PM) pocketbeetle: "Oh! And we've spent the last 50t while you've been losing units, buiding up a big army!"
(9:53:19 PM) pocketbeetle: fuck no
(9:53:51 PM) Iskender: i wouldn't be able to say that if we have a warning period
(9:54:43 PM) pocketbeetle: Nah I'm not keen on that Iskender. I think what I'm offering is fair.
<<pause>>
(9:55:56 PM) pocketbeetle: ...but you don't seem to be interested, do you?
(9:56:40 PM) Iskender: i've made a counter offer. i'm sure it's reasonable
(9:57:09 PM) pocketbeetle: You won't take the NAP for 100t/ Calabim eliminated?
(9:57:39 PM) Iskender: 100 turns is too long
(9:58:07 PM) pocketbeetle: (whichever is shorter. So if Calabim eliminated next turn, that's how long it lasts)
(9:59:16 PM) Iskender: if they are eliminated in 10 turns it's enough to have a 10-turn warning period
(9:59:55 PM) pocketbeetle: I'm not quite understanding the logic there, but I get the impression the answer is no
(10:01:44 PM) pocketbeetle: K
(10:01:50 PM) Iskender: the answer is a different offer
(10:02:47 PM) pocketbeetle: I'm sorry my friend. I don't quite udnerstand what's happened. Two weeks ago, we were discussing an alliance and working together vs the Calabim. Last week you cooled and decided you didn't want to attack them. This week you seem to no longer want to attack them and also want to keep your options about attacking me open
(10:03:44 PM) pocketbeetle: I can't take the risk that you intend to attack me, either soon, or if/when the Calabim are on the ropes and suddenly manage to bribe you into the war on their side
(10:04:04 PM) pocketbeetle: So I'm afraid the Kurios are declaring war on the Hippus this turn
(10:04:24 PM) Iskender: ok, so be it
(10:04:29 PM) pocketbeetle: If I'm wrong, and you did intend to just stay neutral throughout, I'll get on my knees and apologise
(10:04:45 PM) pocketbeetle: But we won't find out until the end. Good luck
(10:05:06 PM) Iskender: good luck to you too

Why am I doing this?

It’s a bad habit, but I’m going to quote myself:

As for the Hippus, why would I attack them?
They’re giving me everything I want (Gems, Wines), the only reason I would consider attacking them is if they were preventing me from reaching an important strategic resource (Iron, Mithril) or if it looked like they were becoming a Calabim vassal.

It just seems like I’m proposing to him possibly the best deal that has ever been offered in one of these PBEMs.

<<snip>>

I’m wrapping myself in knots here trying to figure out why he isn’t biting my hand off to take this deal, and the only reasons I can come up with are bad ones

I've said this before, I know Bob's strength is diplo.
I've watched two players become vassals of the Calabim, one of which I never saw coming.
I can't take the risk of a third player joining with the Calabim, be it vassalisation or simply being bribed into the war midway through.

4v1 = one dead Kuriotates player.
3v1 ... well that's much fairer odds!


I think the key section in the chat above is this:

(9:49:39 PM) Iskender: i would be boxed with long naps with both neighbors
(9:50:10 PM) pocketbeetle: ...who are both fighting. That's the decision you've just told me you've made. To stay neutral and be boxed in until one dies
(9:51:33 PM) Iskender: i said i don't want to get involved right now. i don't want to be a happy builder if one of you runs away with the game

I think the dedicated lurker comments were spot on the money.
Iskender pretty much admits there that he was intending to wait and watch as Bob and I fought, before taking whatever action he felt was appropriate. (I thought he'd join with the winner, sounds like he was planning the opposite and wanted to just keep us balanced and fighting indefinitely).
Combine it with -once again- the excuses and downplaying of the Calabim threat (dismissing two vassals as unimportant?!?), then we have a problem.

Again, to repeat: I can't take that risk.
I can't afford to lose even one megacity, and I can't whip an emergency force in 2t, or even 5t, to deal with a surprise attack.


Outcome:

I've played the turn already but it'll take a while to sort out the screenshots.
It would be fair to say that it went well though.
The CAs survived all four of their coinflip withdrawals at the start, and after that it was pretty much all over.