WW20: Legend of the Undercity

[Bigger]

listen


there's no reason at this point to assume we have a SK. a day vig and night vig would make perfect sense if there are 6 scum (21 is probably 5 and a half, so 6 scum = stronger village). this is toned down a bit as well, since Meiz had to reveal himself to use his ability. the night vig probably has restrictions as well. (every other night, or just 2 shots... maybe even 1-shot).


a SK with 5 scum could work too, (as the one that killed gaspar, a day killing SK is just insane), but we really should focus on hunting scum, and worry about that when we have a lot more clues (for instance, 2 kills tonight).

I find the contradiction between your paragraphs to be rather interesting. First you say there's no reason to believe a SK is out there. But then you say maybe there IS a SK?

Sounds to me like you know there's a SK, but you want to keep people from thinking about the possibility.

Don't be intentionally dense, Azza. There was no contradiction. I said there could or could not be - but who cares. Like Lewwyn said, we should just be hunting scum. Its dumb to even talk about it right now when it does us no good and we'll have a bunch more info on day 4 to figure that puzzle out anyway.

listen -
eh, that probably comes off as harsher than i intended it. sorry azza.

I should go to bed.

[pindicator]

I REALLY don't think a scum will day vig another scum. I think the idea that Meiz is scum is ridiculous (Unless he is SK). I mean buss them, sure, that way you at least waste a lynch and a day. But to just kill scum just like that in the middle of the day, early even, and allow the village more time to regroup, reevaluate and make an even better informed lynch decision? That's hugely pro-town.

Thanks, this post was worth using one of mine.

I hadn't been able to decide about you Lewwyn, and the novice line of thinking did have me suspecting you a little bit. Because in absence of good scum tells I think it really is a good tool, to go back and see who has the best town tells and then work backwards. That's how I got onto the wolves, you included, in WW# whatever-the-one-that-Brick-GMed-that-lasted-12-days-was.

But your responses here make me think town. I can't see scum not being able to bite on this: either by calling me nuts or by agreeing with me.


@Azza-
Maybe that's why you can't talk. You're busy sneaking up on people
I just found it odd that you commented on the restriction like you did. I mean, why would that even bother you?

pindi, would you kindly vote for just one person?

Doesn't the second vote over-write the first?

Anyway, I'm changing. I got a response I liked from Lewwyn, and it's not like that Meiz theory is realistic. It's more like the kind of second guessing, gnawing-voice-in-the-back-of-my-head shouting "But what if!?" that gets me in trouble, like it did when I lynched Waterbat in LYLO. Also, I did a good job shutting that voice out last game (can you believe I almost passed that vig gun to Ryan?)

Pin - thats a really interesting argument for Meiz. Its day 2 though, too early for tin foil conspiracy theories. He did just vig a scum, so i'd just rather pursue stronger leads. the case against novice and molach are both very strong, imo.

Cool, Bigger likes my theory. Really?
But Gaspar was on him day 1, and not in a crazy-Tasunke kind of way. I still think Bigger reads night and day different than last game, so village for him.

Not sure I buy Novice as scum. I've been liking his reads typically. Maybe I should do his idea and go by most to least town...

I want to say Ichabod is scum, b/c his attacks have been so scattered. But if he is, then he's playing the worst I've ever seen Ichabod play. Actually, he's not playing great as a villager. He's just scattershot and everywhere in his thinking and accusations; I would expect a wolf Ichabod to be a lot more precise and measured. Honestly, it's just gut feeling on him, but I feel good enough about it to not vote him.

Also, look at Gaspar's last post in Night 1. I think he's buddying up to a villager there, a villager who's on the wrong targets. Although he doesn't mention which ones he likes and which ones he doesn't, but maybe he doesn't have to from what he's hoping to gain.

Wanted to look into Gaius a bit, to see what there was besides that post 114 that zak spotted as being scummy. Gaius' response on 118 doesn't win me over either. And day 2 we have:

Tasunke, how exactly did Meiz and Gaspar seem aligned to you? I looked, but wasn't able to find anything. However, you were right about Gaspar, so I figure I should give you a chance.

But he never does join Tasunke on Meiz, and Tasunke doesn't even answer his question. Then later...

Why Tas, and why now Meiz?

After the execute order is given.
Leaning no again.

If there's a limited shot vig out there then Gaspar was a lucky, lucky shot. They were a lot more confident about him being scum than I was. Maybe an unlimited every-other-night vig. That would put some kind of impetuous on the user to fire as often as possible. Still think Gaspar was a poor vig target though, but he seems a likely SK target: smart player with little suspicion on him. I can see Bigger as SK though. Taking out Gaspar night 1, and now throwing some doubt on the SK theory, when SK makes the most sense for Gaspar's death


Bigger

Big x-post. Looks like I was thinking similar to Azza here

Battery Power: 50%

[Azza]

listen


there's no reason at this point to assume we have a SK. a day vig and night vig would make perfect sense if there are 6 scum (21 is probably 5 and a half, so 6 scum = stronger village). this is toned down a bit as well, since Meiz had to reveal himself to use his ability. the night vig probably has restrictions as well. (every other night, or just 2 shots... maybe even 1-shot).


a SK with 5 scum could work too, (as the one that killed gaspar, a day killing SK is just insane), but we really should focus on hunting scum, and worry about that when we have a lot more clues (for instance, 2 kills tonight).

I find the contradiction between your paragraphs to be rather interesting. First you say there's no reason to believe a SK is out there. But then you say maybe there IS a SK?

Sounds to me like you know there's a SK, but you want to keep people from thinking about the possibility.

I see no contradiction. he's saying first, that there's no reason to assume that we have a serial killer. In the second, he says that it's possible, bu that regardless it's secondary to scum hunting. Just because there's no reason to assume that there's an SK, doesn't mean that it's not possible, just that we really shouldn't be worrying about that right now.

It sounds like an attempt to deny the possible existence of a serial killer because he knows he's the serial killer. Add this to his previous statement that Gaspar's death was likely the work of a vigilante, which I strongly disagree with, and I can't help but think he's the serial killer.

In fact, I've convinced myself to vote for him.

Bigger

[Bigger]

[Azza]

@Azza-
Maybe that's why you can't talk. You're busy sneaking up on people
I just found it odd that you commented on the restriction like you did. I mean, why would that even bother you?

Well, its frustrating not being able to post something when I actually have something I want to post :P

[Meiz]

Meiz, can you point out what made you change your mind about Tasunke? I'm having a hard time finding it.

You stated:

Tasunke's posts http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid337838 and http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid337895 caused the alarm bells and made me review him. I'll admit I was more sure him being SK. Even as a villager he's major distraction and causes the game to focus on him. And cause I'm a reckless grazy dwarf barbarian, who doesn't take bullshit like that.

But those posts are exactly what Tasunke had been putting out all game: Meiz & Gaspar are a wolf pair, and no reasoning behind it. Why were those posts the ones that triggered alarm bells when you said he looked village for doing the same thing earlier?

I didn't expect much of anything from Tasunke on day 1, but he continued the same on day 2.

So he feels the need to explain three times that he just wanted to explain why he wasn't voting Tas any more. And then the next time he mentions Tasunke?

I'd be really tempted to vote Tasunke, but his posts so far are not surprising me.

Why is he really being tempted to vote Tasunke? He never explains that.

I think Tasunke is major distraction to the game, even as a villager. And he kept voting me without reasons.


I'll go for novice, since he should already be on my villager list, but isn't even close, so he must be scum.

[Serdoa]

Pin - thats a really interesting argument for Meiz. Its day 2 though, too early for tin foil conspiracy theories. He did just vig a scum, so i'd just rather pursue stronger leads. the case against novice and molach are both very strong, imo.

I don't get why you suspect Lewwyn at all, tbh.

Thats one of the bigger issues with those games imo: Someone chimes in and dismisses a case without arguments, just by calling it "a tin-foil-hat-theory" for example, and suddenly everytime that accusation is brought forward, even in case of new arguments, those get dismissed as easily. Great way for scum to save themselves.

I REALLY don't think a scum will day vig another scum. I think the idea that Meiz is scum is ridiculous (Unless he is SK). I mean buss them, sure, that way you at least waste a lynch and a day. But to just kill scum just like that in the middle of the day, early even, and allow the village more time to regroup, reevaluate and make an even better informed lynch decision? That's hugely pro-town.

I don't agree. Tasunke has called in his posts the alignment of 2 players for certain. If he did also tell truthfully the alignment of the third, maybe they decided that it is better to day-kill him than to get him lynched. Because lets be honest, if Tasunke was not killed by Meiz but lynched, what are the odds we would NOT discuss Meiz right now? We all know that Tasunke plays a very different game, so I am certain we would have several players arguing that he DID call all alignments truthfully.

Tasunke is the only player I'm certain plays normally in a way that we others would alwaysy dismiss with "A wolf would never do that". But first and foremost he is Tasunke - and Tasunke would do.

(Btw: Tasunke, I think you bring fun to these games, no matter that the play itself might not be optimal all the time. Keep it up )

I'm willing to give these kind of ideas consideration, but not on Day 2 where there are, to me, much simpler scum tells around - Ichabod's crazy oscillating scumdar or Molach's half-hearted attempts to save Flug for example.

Is serial killer a role or an alignment? I mean, are you randomly rolled town, but then allocated Serial Killer as a sort of power by Uberfish?

If so, then Uber could have consciously linked serial killer to a character he felt fitting.

Like GlaDOS?

Does Pindi's behaviour fit serial killer? My gut says it could.

What's the win condition for a serial killer?

I find it funny that you completely dismiss the case on Meiz, basically stating we should not follow such ideas on D2, but then try to make a case (for meta-arguments I might add) on pindicator as SK. Which btw could be as easily be made on several other player-characters. The Nameless One could fit (he had some rather ugly reincarnations), Creeper would certainly fit as well.

And the way you do it is just extremely scummy. I don't like that post at all. And as no one will vote Meiz it seems (I still believe he is scum):

Gazglum


...................................

I think Tasunke is major distraction to the game, even as a villager. And he kept voting me without reasons.

Remember that post when Meiz does show up wolf. Thats basically a copy of Azzas post from last game, when I questioned him why he pickpocketed Tasunke. Thats just an awful reasoning to give imo.

[Gazglum]

I find it funny that you completely dismiss the case on Meiz, basically stating we should not follow such ideas on D2, but then try to make a case (for meta-arguments I might add) on pindicator as SK. Which btw could be as easily be made on several other player-characters. The Nameless One could fit (he had some rather ugly reincarnations), Creeper would certainly fit as well.

I did and do dismiss the case on Meiz for Day 2. As for Pindicator, it wasn’t actually my intention to make him a lynch target – I was just considering the possibility. And my thought process wasn’t ‘GlaDOS is evil, so PIndicator must be a serial killer’, it was,

‘I don’t see the logic of PIndicator’s last post at all > maybe he is intentionally muddying the waters for everyone > maybe he is a 3rd party serial killer > maybe Uberfish gave him that role because it would be fitting for GlaDOS.’

I was interested, because if I thought Pindicator was crazy, then I would no longer trust his lynch judgements.

I don’t actually see why a hypothetical serial killer should be a lynch target. They’re not more likely to pursue villagers than wolves are they? Unless the wolves are in a very bad way (which I suppose they might be now they’re down two). It seems to me that regardless of whether Bigger is or isn’t a serial killer, we should still focus on someone we think is a probable wolf, and I don't currently think he is.

Going to check back at people’s posts now and decide whether to keep my vote where it is or move it for my night.

[Meiz]

Novice, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid337534
"I read through Gaspar's posts. First impression is that he didn't do much distancing, based on what he wrote and combining it with my own reads. Maybe he felt he could get away with focussing on town tells on the unlynchables and setups on the mislynchables. This is sort of predicated on him not feeling under heavy pressure. I don't think he felt in danger of getting lynched, at least.

Anyway, I'd take a closer look on the players he ignored."

Interesting that Gaspar and Tasunke definitely did not ignore each other.

Start of the day 2 and Molach appears to be the lynch of the day. Novice votes Tas, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid337674

Later we got:

Molach (4) - Azza Lewwyn Meiz Tasunke
Tasunke (4) - Brick Jkaen Novice Rowain
Ichabod (2) - Bigger Gazglum
Gazglum (1) - Molach
Mattimeo (1) - Q

Me and Pind vote Tas, and whoops it becomes:

Tasunke (7) - Brick Jkaen Novice Meiz Pindicator Q Rowain
Molach (3) - Azza Lewwyn Tasunke
Ichabod (2) - Bigger Gazglum
Gazglum (1) - Molach

Novice votes Brick. I think it's telling. Why doesn't he want to apply pressure for his suspect?

[Gazglum]

Meiz, I don't understand what you're saying there - it looks like you've got NOvice down as voting Tasunke, not Brick