WW20: Legend of the Undercity

[Meiz]

Main reason I'm moving away from Molach is that Tasunke voted him, and I don't see Molach & novice pair that likely. Not impossible, but not likely.

I agree that Gaius could also be a wolf.

[Gazglum]

And I'm happy with Gazglum for now, will be on & active for lynch tonight because wife is away but still think his case is worth considering. Today he first doesn't know what a SK is, then gives advice about why we shouldn't hunt for them a few hours later.

I knew broadly what a serial killer was, a 3rd party that can kill each night. I didn't know how its power was allocated, or how it won. That was explained to me, so I felt I could now give an informed comment.

I've been waiting for this argument to come out eventually, basically "Gazglum is a wolf pretending to be more noob than he is.” But really, how is that anything more than a null tell? If this is really my first forum game (which it is), and I’m village, I would ask questions like that. If I’m a wolf, then I would probably play up my newness and ask questions like that. So if the result is going to be the same either way, it seems to me that my behaviour tells you nothing.

[Qgqqqqq]

...

I'll get to the rest later, but my argument on you is NOT that your lurking, its just that the things that have changed since I explained my case earlier are you saying you were going to post heaps and not doing it.
Id still lynch you just based off my earlier argument, I was merely.raising another point.

[Lewwyn]

Haven't read your posts yet, Lewwyn, but I remember the same MO in that game where you were a wolf. Quiet day 1, day 2 come with a magnum opus on some player.

Curious.

Should I be worried?

I'll sleep in it.

I don't like this by Lewwyn either. Especially since the magnum opuses(?) have been on Molach (town lean) and me (innocent). This is indeed Lewwyn's wolf MO.

First I didn't come into the day looking to create a "magnum opus" on anyone. If you actually go back and look you'll see I started the day going through a list of suspects. I suspected Serdoa, went through his posts and then decided he wasn't suspicious. I went through Molach found him suspicious said why. I went through Gazglum's posts found him not susupicious. Decided I wasn't sure on Ichabod. This morning I read everything that happened and I found Novices actions suspicious. I went through his posts and found them suspicious. I posted why.

You both can make short blanket smearing statements but the facts are that my scum hunt has been very clear and processed. I think you are afraid novice.

[Qgqqqqq]

All directed at molach, specifically his latest post (826 at time of composition).
Firstly that whole invisible thing is irrelevant. I don't know why you mention the more words thing its a) irrelevant, and b) makes light of differences in posting style, I normally post pre phone and thus have relatively short replies (he's there are exceptions to the rule) while you generally post walls of text and c) I had little time day1.

Tasunke/gaspar list you as scummy - once again who cares? That looked a lot like distancing or bussing from gaspar and I hadn't even noticed tasunke.

Seeing as you only really talk about your @lewwym post I'll respond to that (link for lazy :http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=5787&pid=337633#pid337633).
In that situation I would've warned him and then dumped it, or at least defended him in thread (you didn't defend him, you posted really weakly saying you thought he was innocent based off this, you didn't bother to try and actively defend him IMO, and that's one of the things you've got heat about).
My question for your next bit (about lynching brick) is why weren't you trying to save flug, who was clearly village because of the QT posting? If you still had ichabod as 20: scum why didn't you vote him?
The rest of it is complete meta based on how you would play wolf, which you seem to continually bring up when you're attacked.
Why not prove your a villager rather then continually spiraling into "I'm clearly playing this wrong if I'm wolf" - maybe your playing like that as wolf just to be able to say that.

Seriously wolfwolfwolf!

[Qgqqqqq]

Main reason I'm moving away from Molach is that Tasunke voted him, and I don't see Molach & novice pair that likely. Not impossible, but not likely.

I agree that Gaius could also be a wolf.

You don't think tasunke would ever vote a wolf?
Even though he votes gaspar all day long and barely mentions milach ?

[Molach]

Okay fine.

I misplayed the QT.
I shouldn't have made the unilateral promise not to quote.
And people think I should have quoted anyway (I still don't)

But do you think I would have misplayed the QT, or more specifically, that I would have misplayed the QT _in that way_ if I had been a wolf?

-
I've been wolf more than villager, and some people should recognize my style by now. My big error is perhaps signing up for the game when I've proven 3 times that I suck as wolf. But I figured the gods should allow me to make that 75% roll for ...just one more game...

still at work but might get 15 minutes free in about an hours time. Then probably nothing until 19:30 GMT, will last until lynchtime.

[Meiz]

You don't think tasunke would ever vote a wolf?
Even though he votes gaspar all day long and barely mentions milach ?

It's quite possible. I'm just guessing at this point he was looking at saving himself and chose the second runner. I'm not declaring Molach as innocent, but at the moment I'm more interested in novice's alignment.

[novice]

Okay, boring defense stuff. Sorry for the huge WoT, I was going to spoiler it but apparently spoiler tags don't nest.

My read on novice has been relatively off as well

Yes it has.

My read on novice has been relatively off as well, but it's nothing I've been able to pinpoint. I feel like either he is a wolf being all nice and dodgy while being ever present, or village that is having such a terrible off game.

I don't know if you're scum or just really off your game. You're playing lazy this game, novice. Have you even had any reads yourself?

Mostly town reads. I had the second vote today on Tasunke though:

Tasunke, why did you suspect and keep voting Gaspar yesterday?

(Jkaen had the first with "something feels off")

Hmmm, this sounds kinda like "Hey don't look too hard at me, I'm being helpful too! But do look I got onto tasunke, love me!"

I guess, I'm willing to put a vote on novice for now, see what comes of it.

Well, first of all, love me! Second of all, I brought up my reads specifically because you asked me for them. I would refute the laziness thing too, but I can't be bothered.

Read through all of novice's posts... didn't take long.

*Vote Zak, joke
*Vote Meiz, pressure vote to get more information
*Unvote, Vote Flug - This is fine flug was being suspicious.
*Never changes vote after that on Day 1, which I think is again fine. SO what does he do the rest of the day?
*Muses about meta with village role PMs

Okay so so far this is fine, I would think?

*Responds to various people about questions other people have. Basically answering for other people.

I suppose I do that sometime, I just can't help it.

*Questions Gaspar which I find interesting:

Going to reply to the Brothers Annoygasparov first:

Bigger, do you ever actually try in these games? You're trying to ride coattails of zak's flimsy but at least partly justified crusade against me. I especially don't like the post where you try to claim credit for being part of starting it when all you've actually contributed is a joke vote you haven't moved and your "me too" posts. I'm very sensitive to people trying to get in on or deflect credit before we know results, especially under no pressure. So here, have some pressure.

But why would scum Bigger want credit for your lynch, unless you yourself are scum?

Have we started lynching people for bad reads? In the games I've played, we give credit for being on the bus early and/or contributing heavily to it. So often when you get to day 4 or so the scum argument is something along the lines of "I read 4 days and nothing." If you can point to "I led the bus on Gaspar on day 1" great. Also, and I think this is the critical point - its highly unlikely I get lynched on day 1. I've never gotten lynched on day 1. I usually defend okay and there's usually someone who draws attention to themselves. Sure - maybe everyone reads this post and decides they want to put me in my place and there's nothing I can do to stop it - but barring something like that I know I'm not getting lynched today, zakalwe knows I'm not getting lynched today, you know I'm not getting lynched today and Bigger knows I'm not getting lynched today. So the only thing better than having credit for a failed lynch is having credit for being out in front of a lynch only to have the oh so stupid village fail to follow you.

The other thing, and the primary reason I'm on Bigger right now - villagers only get in the credit game when they're under pressure. Scum anticipate being under pressure and look for credit immediately. Most villagers take a Pollyanna view and think their villagerness will shine through and hence don't lay groundwork in the same way. Bigger started trying to "claim" my bus before he had gotten any pressure at all. Just doesn't make any sense.

Thanks Gaspar, I figured this was what you meant, but your elaboration is most eloquent. Sorry if I annoy you, don't you think my question was legitimate?

I take slight exception with "the other thing" though. As a villager I'm often keen to gain village cred, as I know I'm prone to catch heat eventually. Besides, my personal goal as town is usually to get nightkilled.

I will stipulate that it's interesting. I don't know what your point is though.

*Thanks for the scrapper
*Mentions possible possessed
* Has this string of posts that I find suspicious:

What is the case on Ichabod?

What is the case on Ichabod?

Perhaps you can start to look for the posts yourself? I think both myself and Serdoa have tried to talk about the reasons we think Ichabod should be lynched. I'm feeling a bit too old to be a tibetan prayingmill for some lazy girl-brat .

I've been reading along but I'm not convinced. I think summarizing the case could be useful, both for the Ichabod voters to gather their thoughts, and for everybody else to make up their mind.

I'm happy to stay on Flug, though.

In fact I'm going to start herding a bit. Not lynching Flug would be a mistake at this point, IMO. It's thestick and selrahc all over. I've had enough of letting nondefenses slide.

Darn it I really don't wont to do this but Ichabod please defend yourself better

Why are you voting Ichabod? Is it just lack of defense? Do you think Flug is defending better? Ichabod at least stated that he didn't have time to defend properly.

I agree with Ichabod btw. that we're all very predictable...

Well those are posts consistent with me having a town read on Ichabod I would think. I explained at the time why I had the reads I had on Ichabod. Again, what's suspicious about this.

*Then this one:

I agree it makes little sense to post in the neighbor thread and not in the main thread, as a wolf. And I think Molach is probably a wolf, 2 neighbor wolves doesn't add up.

So Ichabod, unless people want to vote Molach.

The neighbour thing could be made up. Let's lynch Flug and then Molach.

*And this one:

Not doing the late voting thing. Ends in tears. Flug mist die, it's his own blood on his hands. Molach tomorrow.

Yeah those posts were made with some time pressure so it's just shorthand. Damn straight I wanted Flug to hang over Ichabod at that point. Not resolving the Flug thing would be stupid. The "Molach tomorrow" thing was meant to imply that we resolve the Flug situation before considering Molach.

*Day ends Novice makes a big post about Ichabod telling everyone he thinks he's innocent but also says:

OK, so let me reassess. I think the arguments that Ichabod defended against in that post are weak, so I like his defense. That doesn't mean Ichabod's innocent though, it just means the case on him is weak. Let's recap the case, since you and Serdoa refused to do so, preferring to hit us with walls of quotes instead of trying to actually convince people.

and proceeds to go over the scum tells too. But in the end says that Ichabod is probably village because Ichabod is a good wolf and this is too sloppy.
Full post here: http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid337314

That was my attempt to take a step back from my own prejudices and consider the Ichabod case from the prosecution's point of view. I still find it annoying that none of the accusers could step up themselves and summarize the case, btw.

*Today he voted Tasunke, but when Brick votes Tasunke, he votes Brick in a name only vote post. WHen Tasunke flips scum he says:

Yeah :D

PATH... WALL... RIVER!

Thanks for waiting until I unvoted Tasunke before vigging him.
Can I resume with my case on BRickAstley now? Oh wait, he totally nailed Tasunke.

Unvote.

I think that's actually pretty damning. He's basically saying he never suspected Tasunke because Brick is the one that nailed Tas. I think Novice just wanted to put some pressure on Tasunke and I think its possible he was doing so as scum buddy. WHen too many people hopped onto Tas, he flipped over to attack one of the band wagoners.

The bolded part is nonsense. Really bad statement there Lewwyn. I'm saying that BRick nailed Tasunke, that doesn't mean he was the only one suspecting him. I suspected Tasunke too, that's why I voted for him at the start of the day, because I realized that his bogus votes on Gaspar were suspicious. This triggered a huge scummy post by Tasunke that others picked up on. So I'm actually very happy with my role in Tasunke's death.

My vote for BRickAstley was because I was building a case on him based on his day one interactions with Gaspar that I was planning to publish. And I wanted to get it in quickly before Tasunke's wagon became unstoppable so that I could apply some real pressure to BRick. I would have been perfectly happy to end up on Tasunke come deadline, though. With all the heat Tasunke was attracting so quickly I was confident we could get him lynched if I worked for it.

Then Meiz cut things short and BRickAstley looked very innocent. In parallell, I had begun to doubt my own case on BRick as I read the last part of day one. I found BRick's posts where he pursued his Ichabod suspicions villagery. So I just dropped the vote, choosing not to muddy the waters by bringing up an obsolete case.

-To review Day 1 a lot of nothing and pushing of flug. Also a lot of defending of Ichabod and pushing flug past Ichabod. The string of posts where he asks what the case is against Ichabod and then says whatevr I'm not convince and then saying I'm going to catherd flug is a bit ridiculous. I thought flug need to go, yes. But I also wanted to organically see where people vote. Novice does that a lot too as villager. I think his pushing of flug was a little more emphatic than usual... its day 1?
-Also he was emphatic about we must lynch flug then Molach on day 2. This was before the lynch came due. WHy not wait to see hos flug flips before condemning Molach?
-You defend Molach today though. This seems backwards to me. I would give benefit of the doubt to someone before i knew all the information and then judge them once I do have it. Maybe now that Molach's under heat you want to get village cred if he flips villager?
-Then an ardent defense of Ichabod (with a caveat that well who knows I could be wrong) then now you vote Ichabod after he actually does put together a psuedo decent defense and, supposedly you attack him for going after gazglum, when now he's not doing that? Again backward. Maybe he's scum buddy and you want credit if he lynches?
-In my game as scum I vote the stick early in the dya that he got lynch and then switched off him. I also voted early in the day on Mattimeo and then switched off him. Both times I was looking to gain a bit of credit by voting for scumbuddies who might go down. I think you did that with Tasunke, not expecting to lose him so soon.

Novice

I think I've addressed the points in your summary already.

ok, I have to rethink now. Ichabod may be 3rd on my list. Lewwyn presents a pretty damning case against novice.

screw it, lets go for big game.

novice

I guess I'll refer you to my defense above.

I'll go for novice, since he should already be on my villager list, but isn't even close, so he must be scum.

I don't think I've ever seen you use this one, Meiz. You usually point out scum tells instead of lack of town tells.

Novice, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid337534
"I read through Gaspar's posts. First impression is that he didn't do much distancing, based on what he wrote and combining it with my own reads. Maybe he felt he could get away with focussing on town tells on the unlynchables and setups on the mislynchables. This is sort of predicated on him not feeling under heavy pressure. I don't think he felt in danger of getting lynched, at least.

Anyway, I'd take a closer look on the players he ignored."

Interesting that Gaspar and Tasunke definitely did not ignore each other.

Obviously I didn't just look at the players Gaspar ignored. I was the one who voted Tasunke on day 2 for distancing against Gaspar. Why would I do that if my aim was to discourage this approach?
Also (although this kind of kills my previous sentence's defense value), it wasn't just Gaspar's attitude to Tasunke that triggered my scumdar, but mainly Tasunke's bogus votes on Gaspar. It just seemed like an unlikely coincidence that Tasunke's random votes would hit scum.

Start of the day 2 and Molach appears to be the lynch of the day. Novice votes Tas, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid337674

Later we got:

Molach (4) - Azza Lewwyn Meiz Tasunke
Tasunke (4) - Brick Jkaen Novice Rowain
Ichabod (2) - Bigger Gazglum
Gazglum (1) - Molach
Mattimeo (1) - Q

Me and Pind vote Tas, and whoops it becomes:

Tasunke (7) - Brick Jkaen Novice Meiz Pindicator Q Rowain
Molach (3) - Azza Lewwyn Tasunke
Ichabod (2) - Bigger Gazglum
Gazglum (1) - Molach

Novice votes Brick. I think it's telling. Why doesn't he want to apply pressure for his suspect?

Bolded line, indeed I did. Why would I push Tasunke when Molach was already lining up as lynch of the day?
Answer to the final question: I did want to apply pressure to Tasunke, I just figured he had enough pressure and I wanted to pressure BRick too.

[Meiz]

This is of course just guessing, but I think your wolf plan was to vote Tasunke when it was safe, but move your vote later on BRick or Molach. Tasunke ignored your question on his Gaspar vote and yet you voted away from him just as the pressure was real. It's just scummy, I think villager novice would have waited for Tasunke to respond something concrete.

If you wanted to pressure BRick, you would have timed the vote on the post where there's something you accuse him of. Seems like you were in a hurry as Tasunke gathered votes.

What's wrong with using lack of villager posts as a reason to suspect someone?