Cyneheard's PBEM10 Thread

[Cyneheard]

WARNING: WALLS AND WALLS OF TEXT

I finished the Great Wall. "Whimsy" is probably the best way to describe why I built it. Need to think through my long-term plans with this game. Theo should be finished in 4-5t. Hopefully that gets me the religion, but I've had three spread to me already, it's not like I don't have religious choices even if I don't have Christianity.

Well, this was an interesting e-mail:

Ahoy,

Two completely different things I wanted to talk to you about.

1) On the small-talk side: Great Wall, seriously? I didn't think anyone would build that for ages! I'm guessing you're not afraid of the barbs on your island [right ], so I can only conclude that you wanted the extra GG production. With IMP, that's a lot of generals; any particular reason why, though? You plannin' WARZ?! Seriously, though, maybe we can work out a deal for you to sell me one sometime, IF you're going to war in the near future, that is.

2) More seriously: a little while back, Meatbalz was trying to get OB with me; you sent a message trying to start an embargo at around the same, so of course I refused. However, in the process of correspondence, the topic of YOU came up a couple times. I've been troubled about whether I should tell you for a while, and finally myself and my DL [dedicated lurker] Adlain decided that, since we seemed to be getting along fairly well, I should tell you. Meatbalz added this to the end of his initial proposal:

"I did want to ask - have you got any intel on Cyneheard you care to share? He has an absolutely enormous population & food lead which means he can whip himself into a very strong leadership position. The HG was a good move with all those cities and he'll soon be done colonizing his sphere of influence. Anything you want to ask, shoot."

I responded that, while you admittedly are in a good position [good job on that, BTW], I didn't think you were a dangerous breakaway or anything. He responded:

"I won't go further into the reasons you're seriously underestimating CH, suffice to say he has by far the most pop and by far the most food to feed it meaning he can whip anything he wants to his heart's content. That food & pop lead is growing. And he has GE points to play with from the HG which he'll use to rush another wonder."

So... this could be just idle chatter from Meatbalz, but at the same time... isn't only logical that someone who could potentially be a runaway try to organize against his rival? [And yes, I know you did this against Meatbalz with the embargo; well played] So, I thought that if I was going to have friendly relations with you and not him, I should warn you about this, in case Meatbalz sent a similar message to Ad Hoc. I've had good relations with AH so far, but his sig that he's been using with me IS "the battle king", so... watch out.

Hope this doesn't seem to paranoid.

-Tatan

P.S. Serdoa is out of his skull. Teching all the way up to Literature, with no source of iron secure, seems a bit short-sighted. Especially for someone with no early game advantage at all, unless you count Protective archers [which I don't]. The number of wonders being built actually makes me feel inadequate, lol.

P.P.S. Sorry if this email turned pretty long and rambling. My excuse: a major head-ache from having trick-or-treaters banging on my door all night.

And it got an interesting response...although I was somewhat duplicitious about the war bit. Tatan is definitely my target, over Ad Hoc. No way am I looking at a hot war with anyone else (I could see some skirmishes if, say, some triremes could do some nice damage to Meatbalz, but nothing major). You ask me about war plans, and I'm going to NOT TELL YOU ABOUT ANY WAR PLANS THAT MAY INVOLVE YOU. But since they're not soon, I don't feel too bad about how I denied it.

Brackets are only for your ears, not for Tatan's.

And a variety of responses. I completely forgot that I should, you know, have candy for the trick-or-treaters (In my defense, it is my first year living in a house since graduating. Just one more "thing I should remember in the future").

The Great Wall was more of a "Why not, I've got stone, and Serdoa, who knows what he might do". I don't have any war plans [until ~T100]. I probably shouldn't have built it quite this soon, but it was pure whimsy. And I guarantee you it'll last longer than it did for Jowy, but that it'll also be less awesome than it was for me in PB3 (TGW was the best 2 chops that I ever have done in any game in that one: Emperor barbs were nuts, and with all that empty land...I probably saved 1000 hammers there). Since I've got settling deals on both sides, there's not much of a reason to rush the settler spam, and I don't see how heading for the central island is a wise choice, not with 5 neighbors there.

Yeah, Serdoa's gotten himself into trouble. From the looks of it, Meatbalz ACCIDENTALLY claimed the irons for both of them...and managed to not settle on either of them. Meatbalz is also likely to be the first to have a city on the center island; he's got a chariot next to a 2-pop barb city.

On the embargo: Well, of course I'm going to make sure that we don't get a tech runaway (I've got pop, but GNP's consistently low [6th right now...even if I ran 100% tech]). With how widely Meatbalz has expanded offshore, I don't see how we could keep up with him if he gets to 14-15 cities at 12 free commerce per, and that's likely under peaceful conditions. His low score's misleading; he's settled very far and wide. And he's a lot scarier army builder than I could ever be, especially if given time. [Very true]

The Battle-King...not sure I even know what to expect from him. [Pretty true, although it's more likely that he'd move south, not northeast. Sorry TT: your poor warring in the other PBEMs is catching up to you. Although Ilios won't be a pushover]

Wonder-rushing? From the Hanging Gardens? Yeah, that's almost certainly going to happen. Not sure how one wonder (and delaying an academy to 134GPP) makes me that scary, though. Even if it ends up as one of the better ones left. [I.e., AP]

Meatbalz doesn't trust me? What have I ever done to him? Besides, you know, fail to organize an embargo (hope no one's told him about that bit) and almost completely scout his lands (which he does know).

[Cyneheard]

Random query, for long-term planning:

Does it cost movement to unload from a galley if it's in a city?

[The Reverend Doctor]

Random query, for long-term planning:

Does it cost movement to unload from a galley if it's in a city?

No.

Getting off the galley that's in a city uses no movement points.

Even works in cities in revolt that you've just captured.... you know, if you have any capturing in mind.

[Cyneheard]

Ad Hoc asked for a T100 NAP extension, which I granted. My response:

I think our NAP had an auto-renewing term on it? If you want to extend it to T100, that's fine.

TT will be the 2nd person on that island...meatbalz is already there. He grabbed a Barb city and kept it. SE corner.

Yeah, Serdoa's really being slow on the settlement grab. And whoever's 6th in power is a good 40k behind everyone else.

Economywise: Distance maintenance is basically nothing on this map, the problem is military defense of such a far-flung settlement.

He commented that TT will be settling the central island. But meatbalz is already there. I'm tempted to let those two go at it. Keep them busy with each other, instead of meatbalz having Serdoa for lunch.

[Cyneheard]

T76 Update (Sorry, it's a turn behind)

My colonies:


Market --> Moai Statues, I think. Has enough hammers to build Moai in a reasonable length of time (the chop will go into Moai, and I'll mega-whip the Market).




Next city for the south is being built right now, shouldn't be too long. Three workers can get it up in no time flat, although I should send some archers as well.



My iron. Comes online T81. Blech. Such is life. At least I'm not Serdoa.

My cities in general:



Infrastructure kick, anyone? Now's the right time, without any metal, and peace on all sides.



Eat, baby, eat!

Note: GE due in 9t. Owe Tatan a heads up once I get Theology.

Will post a diplo conversation with meatbalz later. It's...interesting, to say the least.

[Cyneheard]

Note:
Planned revolt stages:
Theocracy + HR, as well as a religion (presumably Christianity, if I get it), when Monarchy comes in. Then grab Vassalage when Feud comes in. Not worth switching to OR temporarily, although that does mean I need Meditation for Monasteries wherever my Holy City ends up being.

Meatbalz chat:

TL:DR version:
He wants to sell me his city of Goth in the central island. I don't want to give him any $$$ for it. Rather let him and TT stare each other down. If he's worried about being overextended there (as he should be), then why would I take that off of him? I'm more than happy with the TGL guy being farther behind, because if we let him catch up...

And Charismatic Navies are going to be awesome.

Note: Serdoa's farmer's gambit WOULD get him in trouble, except that it's Tatan to his north, and a very busy meatbalz to the south. Too many hand-built wonders without using either stone or marble. I may try to sell him one of my doublers. And if I end up fighting Tatan (primary goals: Iron city and our shared island), then Serdoa would get some time, but I'm not sure what he could do if both Meatbalz and I were dangerous neighbors.

me: Congratulations on the barb city
meatbalz: thanks... felt like a shame to raze it. even though i hadn't planned on settling there for a long time
me: well, rumor has it that you won't be alone for terribly long
meatbalz: not a rumor... chariot/settler
me: ah. This is what I get for getting info thirdhand
meatbalz: doubtful it's thirdhand ;-)
me: It wasn't from TT, but I can't recall which of the other three it was
meatbalz: he doesn't have a lot of choice at the moment
me: yeah, ad hoc pressed in on him from the north. you two have split your big island. Now, Serdoa...he's pulled a Kodii. PB1, as Louis, just wonderspammed his way to oblivion
meatbalz: aha was wondering what you meant, didn't follow that one that closely
me: he's got to be #6 in power.
meatbalz: i guess he needs to leverage IND, but it looks over the top
me: Which means he's 40k behind 5th.
meatbalz: yeah i was going to say - by a distance
me: The rest of us are all over 140k. with #1 at 157
meatbalz: he's gambling... i think number 1 is ad hoc
me: well, Tatan has iron hooked up.
meatbalz: i believe. yeah... he knows about TT&me not being best friends. i think he's guessing (correctly) that i have enough on my hands with one loose cannon as a neighbor
me: especially since you don't have metal up yet. But Serdoa doesn't have a metal source unless he popped one.
meatbalz: that would be quite ridiculous. i checked last turn, no metal
me: happened to France in PB3. They popped copper a few turns before I razed their copper city.
meatbalz: pretty lucky
me: just a little. would have saved them if they weren't recklessly stupid. leaving Paris defended with just one damaged spear
meatbalz: i know. i was in charge of diplo on that game at the start
me: which civ?
meatbalz: HRE
me: Oh, right. That was a LONG time ago.
meatbalz: was too friendly to france... they thought it was a sign of weakness
me: I remember it mostly being the Ilios show.
meatbalz: yeah, ages ago
me: France was completely clueless.
meatbalz: yeah, i had a lot going on and diplo was far too convoluted
me: I mean, NO slavery... the diplo was absurd. I burnt out at least once. really, twice.
meatbalz: once was enough for me
me: 1) Right after PAT formed
2) When the game restarted
meatbalz: awful game. this one is shaping up to be great
me: yeah, just too big. I hope so. Although I'm annoyed at Kyan's choice for how he distributed the metal. [Sorry, Kyan, but you did goof on this one. The rest of the map works great, but this is THE ONE THING that has to be right, it's too valuable if it isn't]
meatbalz: 2 4-tile islands, 1 3-tile + you can do what i did
me: heh, you claimed Serdoa's iron without even trying.
meatbalz: and lock your neighbor out
me: It should have been a 5-tile island, with the iron on the edges, so that you couldn't lock your neighbor out without settling twice
meatbalz: meh...
me: or, really, iron should have been on the triangle
meatbalz: settle central tile, wait for borders to 2x-pop
me: that's a long time, unless you're ad hoc
meatbalz: home island would have been better. i agree. wanted to run something by you
me: ok, go ahead
meatbalz: any interest in my city on central island?
me: Hm. What are you looking for in exchange?
meatbalz: gold or a GP
me: You've got the Great Lighthouse, and you're asking for more gold? [SERIOUSLY? Come on, ask for HAMMERS, if you must]
meatbalz: yup... i don't particularly need the city
me: My Great People are worth far more than a central island city.
meatbalz: and i don't think you want to be ferrying troops across the map
me: Agreed, long supply lines suck. [Another reason why I DON'T WANT THAT CITY]
meatbalz: GL is nice but TT set me back
me: you've got 10 cities
meatbalz: + i've had to build more military than i'd like because of his aggression
me: that's more than enough free commerce. there's just no way I can give you more of your strength.
meatbalz: most of 'em i had to plant off the central island to claim land quick vs TT. can't blame you for your stance, but check my food, pop, and MFG against yours for example, not really competitive. you can see the Pop demog
me: aye. well, food
meatbalz: yeah, food & pop, i'm miles behind, and not catching up very quickly and my MFG is sub-par too
me: MFG is a draw at the moment.
meatbalz: and more than i'd like has gone to troops rather than infrastucture
me: #1 is 75, #6 is 67. Food, there's a disparity (149 to 93)
meatbalz: food->hammers early game so i'm behind in hammers if not the MFG stat
me: speaking of which, I'm surprised you didn't try to ICS your triangle, given your TR commerce, in particular, there's no way you can get more than 7 cities instead of 9
meatbalz: i still have 3 spots to settle. i wasn't joking when i said my development was lacking. would have liked to get them settled, but that would have meant conceding the whole island to TT
me: landgrab first, fill in later
meatbalz: indeed
me: although, moving where you did on T0 wrecked an ICS dotmap
meatbalz: but it got me TGL so i'm happy w/ it
me: true.
meatbalz: that's the one thing keeping me afloat.. the T0 move. my research is above average, food & production well below
me: you're getting more out of your wonder than Serdoa is out of his whole set
meatbalz: but 10 cities is better than 7
me: yeah, long-term, I think you'll be fine there
meatbalz: yeah, he's gone full-on wonder hog
me: Parth + GLib isn't a bad pairing but...Jesus.
meatbalz: well, if he doesn't get conquered his research will catch up. IF
me: I know.
meatbalz: i can't do anything about it now
me: I just wish I was next to him.
meatbalz: way too busy on the TT front. it's tempting to go after him... but TT would declare in a heartbeat. he might anyway
me: You mean Ilios. TT doesn't have that mean streak. Ilios...I think we both know the answer to that one.
meatbalz: i think TT is going to overcompensate. twice he's been screwed by going too light on military. not this time i think, he set out to be aggressive right from the start (razing my city)
me: Well, Genghis of Sumeria was a great pairing. And, yeah, chariot vs. chariot?
meatbalz: yeah, smart move
me: I'd have done that one if I was him. I wanted Genghis of Sumeria, but knew that Hammy of Sumeria was fairly likely if I grabbed Genghis when I could have. I just wish I hadn't taken Carthage.
meatbalz: ???
me: Should have done Portugal.
meatbalz: water map...
me: Numids are worthless.
meatbalz: i said in my thread that the one who should have taken portugal is tatan
me: Numids are worse than useless, on this map. Nah, Dutch work just as well. Better, really, if it gets that far. No one can mess with Dikes on this map.
meatbalz: i'm gutted i missed out on napoleon. boudica of arabia is not what i was hoping to get
me: Given our choices (again, why I don't get Serdoa's choice)
meatbalz: especially when the only other AGG civ becomes your enemy as soon as you meet
me: I mean, Ind/Pro over Agg/Imp, Imp/Cha...anything else?
meatbalz: aha sorry i meant Serdoa should have taken portugal, not tatan
me: ah, yes. Well, he may have suggested it? [Answer: No.]
meatbalz: Qin at least has an advantage, although cyrus is better. but why bother taking russia, which plays like a naked civ for 2/3 of the game
me: Cossacks are useful
meatbalz: when that's the alternative, portugal is 100% upside
me: but Research Institute???
meatbalz: they come too late (cossacks)
me: Probably. But RIs are utter junk.
meatbalz: worthless. he's not even Russian ;-) don't get that one. better for everyone else there's no portugal
me: that is true. Carracks would be absurdly dangerous, probably inviting dogpiles, although, Charismatic Carracks would be obnoxious to knock off.
meatbalz: obnoxious is putting it lightly
me: Just get Theocracy and Vassalage, and you'll have a crazy navy. Well, both of us, really.
meatbalz: it'll be quite a while before i'm in those, need to get my cities founded & developed first. OR / HR higher priorities [HR's en route to Feud, though. He's in both of them]
me: true, but you can also blow through those techs faster than anyone
meatbalz: haha, i think you're overestimating my research rate, although no doubt it's faster than average. the more people develop their cities the more the advantage erodes
me: break-even of 110bpt gets you those two techs in about 8-10t
meatbalz: but it's not a trifling advantage at the start, for sure
me: since you have the pre-reqs. there's no way you're only at 110bpt. Well, hm. Maybe.
meatbalz: 110bp break-even? you might be overestimating a bit there. the trade routes help
me: There's no way you're that little ahead. 60 free commerce from TR meatbalz: well, i'm working a lot fewer tiles
me: relative to me
meatbalz: i'm checking my last screenie to have a look
me: You've got ~35 pop [I can see 9 of his 10 cities, and saw 34 pop on them]
meatbalz: yeah that's right. 110 is a bit high but not far off. problem is i barely have any libs or markets [I have 2 of each. So?] fixing that now
me: Markets are for happy
meatbalz: markets are for gold... binary
me: binary makes no difference. T-Hawk 101.
meatbalz: difference or not, 25% extra gold helps when you're relying on gold from trade routes
me: aye, but at 60% science time-averaged, you're talking 40% gold on up to 20 commerce. That's 2gpt from the market. outside, say, the capital [Except his is mostly mined, not cottaged]
meatbalz: 2gpt/city ain't bad. it's like an extra trade route
me: agreed, but it's 100h
meatbalz: obviously libs take priority
me: that's a lot for just 2gpt, again why the happy is the real reason to build them. the gold just means it's better than Cols or temples
meatbalz: economy is all i've got going for me right now. libs & even mkts are critical. can't engage in a 2-front war so landgrab is out of the question [You've FINISHED your landgrab, dude. 10 cities? With only FOUR on your home island?]
me: heck, I don't think you can engage in a one-front war.
meatbalz: TT is likely to attack soon given v. aggressive troop positionings & i have to keep that front solid so thank god serdoa isn't a military threat. your military isn't looking too shabby
me: and that ad hoc boxed out TT on the iron. at least, that's the impression I got from ad hoc. he's not always perfectly clear in convos
meatbalz: yeah. and agreed re: AH.
when we were talking at the start you said you'd build quickly to 12 cities. you've only deviated from that path twice: once for HG this time big military buildup...
me: TGW was a "Hm. Why not. I'll get a GG off of it eventually". It's not a big military buildup. TGW is quite a few soldier points and pop add up fast as well as garrisons. TGW's 10k
meatbalz: thanks. was saying i'd looked it up and forgotten how man it was
:-)
me: And eventually the Spy will be of value somehow either espionage or golden age. so, no, I'm not in a position to invade anyone right now and won't be for some time
meatbalz: espionage not much of an option w/ the game settings [how so? I can still infiltrate a neighbor's island if so desired]
me: regardless
meatbalz: yup, i think the only one who's been building military planning to use it immediately is TT but everyone's thinking 15-20T ahead as they should
me: true, but I need my metal before I can really start an army
meatbalz: you & tatan managed to split?
me: yep. Not sure why, tbh he could have claimed it, and I'm not sure I could have done anything about it
meatbalz: i'm sure he beat you there. haha, i was going to say. i'm sure he beat you, because if you'd gotten there first you would have locked him out [Uh, yeah] sensible move
me: agreed. it would have been too easy and then, turn my HG pop into spears and galleys and just flood him with them until he popped. a few swords for archer-busting
meatbalz: + you don't have TT next to you giving you problems
me: that's true [although Ad Hoc could be dangerous]
meatbalz: anyway nice chat
me: aye
meatbalz: (even though we skirt the real issues) gotta go
me: still don't think I can make you an offer on Goth, though

[Cyneheard]

So, since Meatbalz beat me by ONE TURN to Christianity (ARGH), I had to come up with an alternate plan: Let TT and Serdoa bid over the right to have their religion be the AP religion. I would let MB also bid over it, but if he won the bid, I'd really lose any diplomatic credibility.

So, this offer (with appropriate edits) was sent to both of them:

So, I've had all three of the early religions spread to my territory. I'm considering using my Hanging Gardens Great Engineer on the Apostolic Palace, due in the not-too-distant future (by T90). This presents me with a dilemma, if I do it: Which of the three religions should I take? I've had good relations with both you and Twinkletoes, so it's not like I have an obvious side to give both ~15gpt worth of shrine income and the large boost that the AP gives to your own cities. And I can't rush a wonder that's going to help someone with a better-spread religion more than me without certain considerations.

Proposed deal (TT will get the same one, and if you both match the deal, I'll need some other reason to choose one over the other. I can't not give him an opportunity to match.):
1) Neither of us will go for a Religious Victory. Period. It's a broken win condition, and makes everyone else feel better.
2) Veto power over which resolutions are put forth. That works both ways, depending on who ends up as the Resident in future elections. This way neither of us can be screwed by war declarations or peace kicking our units around. Since most of the AP resolutions can be circumvented in MP play, that's not the end of the world.
3) All shrine income from my cities will be sent to me. So, if I have 12 Buddhist cities, and you've got a market in your capital, that's 15gpt. I figure that's something which can be recalculated every 10t. You would gain the AP hammers everywhere, I skip needing to burn a prophet on a shrine. Win-win. It'll take some time for me to spread my cities around, and this obviously won't take effect until the AP's up. Note: If other players then chose to take up your religion, then you'd get 100% of those proceeds.

[TT only]Query: When's your shrine coming up? If it's by T90, then I'll go with "close enough" to Serdoa's already-existing shrine.[/TT only]

Cyneheard of Carthage

I figure I should get this or maybe something slightly better. A tie would likely go to Serdoa (weaker), and since neither of them have metal, that helps a lot in keeping either one of them from running away with it. But it does help them with future LB spam.

[novice]

What's your reasoning for wanting the AP now that you have to use someone else's religion? (Also given the many alternative uses for a great engineer.)

[Cyneheard]

I'll still get just as much out of it. It's the only good source of hammers left for a map like this and works great with an ICS build.

In fact, if this deal goes through, I'll save needing a prophet for a shrine, but otherwise lose very little, so I come out ahead. And the people who benefit most (either TT or Serdoa) could use the help to keep a balance of power in the south.

[Cyneheard]

Still waiting to hear from Serdoa. I really want him to make the offer...I'd rather support him than TT, who's more likely to be crushed by both neighbors.

Oh, and after getting Meditation and Priesthood at like 30% and 20% research (need Monasteries and Temples for AP hammers and religion-spreading...), after hitting "End Turn" I got "Monarchy (5)" at 20% tech. Even on quick, that seems a little odd, that Monarchy's a 1t tech, and it's only T79. Looks like I will have time to do a triple-revolt to Vassalage, HR and Theo. Since I'll have 13 cities at that point, I'll be just under the threshold for extra anarchy.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=342624

This is a Large Map, so I'd need 15 cities to only be able to double-revolt in 1t at Quick Speed. Thanks, T-Hawk.