[SP0ILERS] Mackoti + Ioan76: Rooservelt of the Netherlands

[Ioan76]

We are at peace with ludite{...}

Really ?

Here is his last email :

All right, I've decided to accept peace with you for now. I'm actually very surprised you were able to get a chariot, 2 warriors, and a settler down there so fast. I really didn't think you had anything there.

So here's my agreement. I will not settle past the wine, and I'll move my current settler back. I'll settle on the east side, you can settle on the west side, and no one settles on the 2 tiles in between. Sound good?

I don't want to agree to an NAP right now, though. Sorry, but I feel nervous since you broke our last NAP. Instead, I propose that, after I move my settler back, we should declare war, and then immediately make peace. That way, you can be sure that I won't settle past the choke point, and then we'll have an unbreakable 10 turn peace treaty.

I don't care what wonders you build. Hopefully at some point we can still trade wine for ivory, though.

Anyway I hope we can avoid building unnecessary units, and build settlers instead, to compete with Parkin and Plako.

IMHO we should consider the following aspects :

1. Don't underestimate the bad-impact of breaking a NAP ( especially in our first Pitboss game here ). I'll assume that Luddite is really angry and he will break any treaty with us ... when he will have the opportunity to do so.
2. I'd say that is absolutely childish to belive that our initial plans ( to reach 11 cities ) will work unaffected from now on.
3. I assume also that Luddite want to teach us a lesson ... so I don't buy his "advice" to not build military units and to focus on settlers - this is actually a good way to let us without any proper defence and vulnerable to a retaliation attack ... he's not very advanced anyway - so such an approach will not harms his situation ( too much ).
Please don't follow his "advice" - if we will do so we will lose our only advantage which we have - a good momentum on battle-line ( as he also admit ) !! Don't make peace after war-declaration - actually I wrote him an email to contest the proposed deal. I bet 10 to 1 that he will build military units to organize a counterattack right after those 10 turns. If we will accept this peace and will build "settlers to compete with distant players" ... we will be completely screwed soon after !!

And Ioan i am very mad becasue you moved that chariot.I am in charge here and you shoudn't move any units around.

Calm down - it's the best choice to settle such dispute as suggested and to not escaladate the conflict in vain.
[SIZE="1"]Anyway - we both play on this game and I saw no point to not proceed as indicated.[/SIZE]

That's all for the moment.

[kalin]

Hi Guys,

Congrats on the pyramids and good luck with your war. For what is worth I wanted to tell you that I believe when you say you didn't mean to double move and that you didn't act in bad faith. Also, as someone who played with someone else here, a piece of advice: try not to fight with each other and communicate as much as possible to clear the air between yourselves, otherwise it will ruin your fun.

Kalin

[mackoti]

Tanks Kalin.Indeed i never wanted to do a double move.

[Ioan76]

Indeed - it was not a double move ( I just connected to check progress for The Pyramids ).

[SevenSpirits]

Indeed - it was not a double move

Are you saying that no units were moved after the first 6 hours, on the previous turn? If so, this was probably worth mentioning earlier.

[mackoti]

Are you saying that no units were moved after the first 6 hours, on the previous turn? If so, this was probably worth mentioning earlier.

I dont care, i never wanted war with Luditte , but he nevere listened to me and always acted towards like i was a 'noob'.Well he foud that i am not one, and that i dont joke about things.

Of course i dont belive him i will keep building military on our borders because he is realy a guy which i dont trust.I said to him that our wine to be the borders and after that coming with , well i didn't realy said that.I dont like double speaking(i dont how exactly you say this in english).I tryed very hard to have peace, but he not just et him to have all the land and then will be peace, and trying to sneak a setler and a worker there,man that very low.

[Ioan76]

Are you saying that no units were moved after the first 6 hours, on the previous turn? If so, this was probably worth mentioning earlier.

I didn't move anything when I logged in ( OK - is just my word against Luddite's one ) - and from what I read in "United Nation" thread the fact that I connected late in that turn was considered as a proof for the "double-move crime".
Also Macedon said that he didn't make a "double-move".
Actually Macedon send me an email in which he instructed me to not move anything until he return saturday evening ( GMT + 2 ) because the "next move will be extremly important" - here it is ( unfortunately in slang-Romanian ) :

Te rog sa nu dai end turn, pt ca eu ma intorc numa simbata seara.Am facut toate mutarile pt azi si tre sa las sa treaca turnu ca su pierd.Turnu urmator e cel mai important asa ca te rog nu muta nu fa nika.

IMHO our mistake was the fact that we didn't declare war before the attack - even if probably Luddite would became angry even in that situation.

Anway ... case closed, no ?

[SIZE="1"]Romanian quote-of-the-moment : Ajunge o bâtă la un car de oale. [/SIZE]

[SevenSpirits]

I didn't move anything when I logged in ( OK - is just my word against Luddite's one ) - and from what I read in "United Nation" thread the fact that I connected late in that turn was considered as a proof for the "double-move crime".
Also Macedon said that he didn't make a "double-move".

That would certainly not be proof.

"Proof" in this case was:

1) Luddite post showing chariot moved twice (with war declaration in between) before he moved in between.
2) Luddite screenshot showing in-game chat with mackoti in which Luddite told him the rule that he was supposed to have moved in the first 6 hours on the previous turn, and mackoti trying to excuse it by saying "i didn't intended to do that" and "you forced my hand".

So there are two possibilities I see here:
1) mackoti broke the rule.
2) mackoti understands the rule so poorly that even after it was explained to him, he didn't realize he didn't break it.

Either way I would recommend trying to learn the rules of the game you are playing instead of treating them like an enemy and rolling your eyes.

I can't see anywhere that mackoti ever claimed he did not double-move, by the way.

IMHO our mistake was the fact that we didn't declare war before the attack - even if probably Luddite would became angry even in that situation.

I can't think of any possible meaning of the word "attack" in which you attacked before declaring war. What do you mean?

[Ioan76]

Luddite post showing chariot moved twice (with war declaration in between) before he moved in between.

I don't know exactely what Luddite posted about this - here is what Plako said in "United nation" thread :

Mackoti declared war against Luddite at the beginning of this turn. During previous turn Ioan (Mackoti's dedicated lurker). Were logged in shortly in the beginning of the turn and a longer time after 6h from the previous turn had passed (at least it seems like that from civstats).

I just said that I didn't move any units ( actually not even had a look to contested area ) when I was logged in.

I can't think of any possible meaning of the word "attack" in which you attacked before declaring war. What do you mean?

It was a sneak attack ( war declaration + attack in the same turn/move ) - but I have no ideea/indication that Macedon captured those settler + worker before Luddite's move which bring them in the "action range" of that chariot.

Actually I'm not exactely sure what would be considered as a fully legitimate way to act in the following scenario :
- move the chariot near contested area;
- in the same turn, but latter, due to the other player move, spot the settler + workers moving to claim a contested good place;

Here I'll see the following possibilities at the begining of the next turn :

1. Sending an ultimatum - something like "If you will not retreat those units back until we reach a diplo-conclusion I'll break the NAP and will declare war next turn". But the problem will be that the settler + worker could be moved in another location ... or even found the city and be "protected" for first turn ( due the fact that the war-declaration could happens only in the next round etc ).
Still this is probably the most appropriate way to act.

2. Just declare war ( being in the first 6 hours of that round ) but don't attack & capture that units. This could be interpreted as a "last effect of expired NAP" ( or is just the way in which the rule is intended to act ? ) ... and to offer a peace treaty imediately when the other player's units exit "contested area" - without any actual fight involved.
This is some sort of "armed peace" in order to show the importance of a certain settling-area ( but also could be interpreted as a "dumb-diplomacy" in previous treaty-negotiation ... ).

3. Act as we did - declare war in "legitimate first 6 hours" ( even if Luddite would not have time to react to this declaration ) and proceed to a "sneak-attack".
From the reaction here seems that this was a wrong way to act ... even if didn't involve any "double-move" - but a NAP was broken.

What is actually the exact way to proceed in the situation of such "wandering settlers" ? 1 ? 2 ?

[kalin]

Hi Mackoti/Ioan,

In the light of your latest posts I think it's worth revisiting the issue of the double move. At the moment it's not clear to me at least that you double moved and that the punitive move was justified. I am not saying it wasn't justified, just that things appear unclear.

Of course, it's up to you if you want to clarify the issue, but I think that if it can be reasonable shown that you did not double move, you may be able to get some compensation.

I would therefore suggest that you state again what both of you did or what you did not during the turns in question and go from there.

Kalin

P.S.: For the lurkers, I can confirm that in the message above in Romanian Mackoti tells Ioan not to move anything.