[SPOILERS] Catherine of China

[plako]

Cities+Military advisor+Techs and yes we've ridiculously just 14 Workers for 24 cities. however I think there is just 1 unimproved tile worked + of course some coastal tiles.

[antisocialmunky]

Looks like we have a good round of diplo:

Responses:

Hey there plako,

Concerns about you have been raised by several teams, not just rego. I doubt anyone has been completely forthcoming about their roles in the 'scheme', but every time it's been brought up it fell flat on its face because no one was willing to seriously invest resources in opposing you.

Either way though, regardless of what the Zulus have done, I don't think going to war with him is the right thing to do. Everyone has been so tunnel-visioned on the potential danger that you pose that they have completely ignored the sleeping dragon that LordParkin has become. Please don't make the same mistake. If two of the civs that might still be able to compete him now go to war with each other, you basically ensured his victory. Instead of plotting against each other, you should be planning to take down LP together.

-SleepingMoogle

Hi Plako and ASM,

I accept that you have closed your borders and fully allow that you have the right to spend your EPs however you want. I think that I will have to decline your offer for the 10-20 gpt plus gems for you to re-open your borders. I don't think that would be worth the benefit that we'd get from having OB with you.

As for us "initiating" the "plako problem", I don't know who talked to you and what they told you, but I'm not embarrassed about what we actually did (whether whoever told you the whole truth or put their own spin on it I don't know). I'm not sure why you are surprised - I thought I was pretty clear when we were talking a few weeks ago that I wasn't excited about you seizing twice the land of everyone else. So sure I talked to other players about that. I'd be surprised if I was the only one - it's my impression that these kinds of talks (about various players) go on all the time.

But having said that, I meant what I said when we first talked with you about this - I have no problem allying with a strong player - there are a lot of benefits there to someone that truly wants an alliance with equals. The impression I got from you guys when we talked was that you were more interested in just using the threat of your military to grab as much land as you could. Maybe that was not the impression you meant to give but that's how sunrise and I took it.

In any case, what's done is done. You are upset with us and so you've taken the actions to close borders and spend all your EPs against us. I'm not sure whether you mean them to be hostile, but it is prudent that we spend our gold and hammers on our military. If you do have hostile intentions, I think you will find it much harder to attack a foe with an up-to-date military.

As for the other part of your offer (regarding a NAP or other arrangement), we are interested in discussing it, if you have specific ideas. I worry that if we do not continue talks, that things will only escalate further, which I think is in neither of our best interests. I think we both would prefer some time to consolidate and grow our newer cities, do you agree?

Hope to hear from you soon

dan.
regoarrarr

Good job with the diplo with Locke and Rego. Locke for getting him to help us and Rego for playing hardball and forcing Rego to play more our game. I wouldn't keep demanding stuff from them really because they won't give us anything for free. Rather, I would start gathering the alliance against LP. Something "We'll help you if you help us take LP down a peg."

I suppose we should talk to everyone about taking LP down a notch since its common ground and people are all concerned about it. I frankly don't care about breaking an NAP with LP to do it.

I think we need to at least get Rego, Luddite, us and Locke in on it. Nakor would be there for a bonus. SM, Adlain and Mackoti are somewhat away and probably can't contribute too much. Not sure how to deal with the NAP with LP, I'd just break it and be straight up with the 'alliance' about LP's secret pact. Our aims would be for us to throw our WK-era units at LP's southern cities and try to get them. Minimal commitment by us, try to slow Locke and Rego down while at the same time crippling LP. Then we'd probably be in the winning spot. More production than you can shake a stick at going into late game with a good tech rate.

[plako]

I don't think breaking our deals is the way to go. We just need to wait until our deals wear off and hope LP doesn't get too far to catch. We can start collecting group beforehand ~T180 when our Secret pact ends since our NAP extension didn't include that part ;-).

[antisocialmunky]

It may be too late but I understand where you are coming from. I think in 50 turns he'll be able to muster a large enough military force out defend it. It'll still slow him down. We'll just have to be really careful to not over-commit and let 'allies' take the brunt of the fighting.

[antisocialmunky]

I checked in to look at the stats. Start of a new turn and I set everything to markets.

I'm also on chat with Rego. He tells me that LP has no military techs like archery. I'm trying to talk to rego about Nakor + Boats + Vikings.

Update 1: Rego keeps trying to figure out who sold him out. I hinted at LP but for some reason he keep suspecting Nakor and finally settled on WK. Also seems that an attack before gunpowder would be the only way to really cripple LP.

Update 2: Talked to luddite. He agrees that it would be nice if Nakor could be coaxed to boat LP. Thinks Nakor may do it for a city.

I think I'll stop double posting. Wouldn't want to spam more than certain people

[plako]

T151

Sry ASM. I changed most of the Markets out of production. If city is generating less than 20 commerce and we don't plan on utilising Merchants, I think building wealth is way better option. I also started Forbidden Palace in Yaba.

I'm glad you've taken active role in diplo. I think it is better not to hint Rego any further who leaked. In pratice both Locke and LP told us. Nakor didn't give away anything . Hopefully this causes some paranoia to Rego .

[plako]

Lord Parkin has now opened borders with Rego after all this time keeping them closed. I guess he doesn't consider them threat anymore or got enough out of it. Deal probably included at least bananas visible in the trade window.

We started to plant seeds on Nakor's mind about possible attack on T200 since he has a NAP ending on T200 too (Everyone seems to have long one with LP). He'll provide boats we'll go for Rifles. Had to do some calculations how easy it is for us to get to Rifles and if we could get also something for our economy before getting there.

Our tech path will probably include heading to PP as fast as possible 1st.

[fluffyflyingpig]

Just blame WK for all diplo leaks. It's not like WK is around to dispute it!

[plako]

Just blame WK for all diplo leaks. It's not like WK is around to dispute it!

I suspect WK wasn't "in the loop" with his single city.

T152

Finally getting some National wonders up. I think I would have been better of building the Moai way back in the Brb. We found also Iron tiles. None of them were yet improved. Luckily one of them is in the BFC of Moai city. That is indeed nice addition to its production capabilities.

[plako]

Massive chat with LP. I wasn't too happy about him signing the OB with Rego so I was bit out of balance. I really shouldn't have bothered, but I couldn't help myself after the chat started to escalate to nit picking. Lord Parkin is very good at talking himself out of trouble. I've seen it often enough . He always seems to find good excuses and explanations. Well I've played pretty open cards here and I doubt we will be doing much co-operation during the next 50T:

me: hi
Lord Parkin: hi there what's up?
me: Just got me wondering. Now you've OB with Rego? I thought that wasn't the plan. We had a plan to act ~T170
Lord Parkin: He made me an offer I couldn't refuse... he's not getting that much out of it, don't worry
me: Made my closign bprders totally useless. I better of oprening them again
Lord Parkin: We had a plan? We'd discussed it, but neither of us committed. I got the impression we were more interested than you were. Anyway, temporary OB doesn't mean the option isn't still there. Are you actually genuinely interested in warring with Rego though?
me: Yeah we discussded about it, but didn't make any detailed plans. I was just surprised to find you getting Bananas and OB
Lord Parkin: Well yeah, I wasn't going to accept straight OB with Rego, I made that clear to him the past hundred or so turns. This was the first time he came with an offer of anything more than OB for OB.
Well if you want to discuss it more seriously, I'm open to that... you just seem to be a bit non-committal regarding it.
me: ok. So are you still intrested in to attack ~T170? I'll have Machinery soon and in vassalage wihtout anyone to attack against
Lord Parkin: I'd need to be sure you were genuinely interested in fighting first, not just getting us involved in a war. Would also need firm commitment to a longer NAP between us. I've been getting a bit of a feeling that you've been distancing yourself from us lately, so I'd need to be sure we were in it together.
But yes, it could be an option
me: I'm not intrested in prolonging the NAP
Lord Parkin: Ok, well to me that says a great deal about your intentions. How are we supposed to commit to a war against a common enemy when our NAP will end very shortly after that war?
me: We've a NAP for 50T that is plenty
Frankly I'm not pleased after seeing your territory
Lord Parkin: well looking at things realistically, how long do you expect a war with Rego to last? It's going to be at least 10-20 turns. That already brings us up to min 190.
me: "Luddite settled towards me" statements make me laugh
I was again pissed you gave OB to Rego
Lord Parkin: Eh? Luddite had claimed a lot of land in my area. We later re-discussed a border which is closer to what you see now, before any cities were founded. What's that got to do with you anyway?
me: right after I had told you that it had minor impact on him
Lying is the key work
Lord Parkin: I didn't have any agreement with you surrounding OB with Rego. I don't see why you should have control over whether we accept favourable deals from other civs.
It's only temporary anyway
me: None, but few turns before we had talked about attacking him and I was as commited as you
Just check the chat
Lord Parkin: hmm, I got the impression your interest in that trailed off more recently... will check the chat log though
OB does nothing to prevent an attack though
me: Sure
Lord Parkin: For the record, I haven't been entirely happy about how our relationship has played out either. When we originally made our arrangement, you were far and away the #1 dominant civ, which was fine. I'm okay with having a stronger partner - I've had many such games before. However, lately I've been wondering if you're only okay with a partnership as long as you're the #1 partner. Now your perspective may be different, and perhaps I'm reading too much into too little, but it's the feeling I've been getting lately.
Just my 2 cents anyway
Feels like you've been a bit cold towards us since we switched places on the scoreboard, at least to me.
We're still both strong civs, and I think we could still have a lot of fun and accomplish a lot together. But only if we're both willing...
A partnership can't work if only one partner is willing to commit
Sorry if this comes across as being heavy/mean - not my intention. Just trying to be honest with you so we have a chance to fix things.
Perhaps there's things about our partnership you'd like to see fixed too? Feel free to comment...
me: You've it right. I've been colder. Granted some part of it is definately you being #1 or at least the timing of it. I've been a long time bothered by the lies you used to get the border agreement. I also didn't like the way you helped WK or how you now right after we had discussed about me closing borders to hurt Rego opened them again
Lord Parkin: The OB with Rego was actually just unfortunate timing. Rego had made the Banana offer to me before you closed borders, and then told me you'd closed them just as I'd finalised the OB deal with Rego. You have to understand that all up until that point in the game, I was pretty much the only one continually denying Rego OB. If I'd known beforehand that someone else would stand with me then I'd have reconsidered opening them. So it was just an unrelated incident of bad timing. I'm sorry you felt hard done by by it.
It wasn't ever my intention to leave you "out of the loop" there. I never knew you were even considering closing borders with him until too late.

Lord Parkin: Regarding WK, I did help him out, but it was part of a two-way deal. I didn't have any quarrel with the guy, and he made me a reasonable offer, so I accepted. You might have done the same in my position.
Changing the outcome of the war (and I doubt it did that at all) really wasn't the purpose.
As for the border agreement, I don't see how you think we "lied" about it. You mentioned you felt we lied about the status of our arrangement with Luddite, but that was actually completely the truth at the time. You weren't exactly forthcoming with how much land you had in other directions either. I don't think either of us should hold general cageyness in border arrangements against the other, though - I'm pretty sure everyone negotiates that way.
except maybe Adlain
And of course, with the #1 thing... well, both civs in a partnership can't be #1 at the same time. I kind of hoped we could rise above that and not dislike one another simply because of our relative positions. I never held it against you when you were rolling way ahead.
me: Things are not black and white and every incident alone wouldn't be a big deal. But when you start counting everything up it does seem quite a lot. Here is e.g. reminder what you said while we negotiated about our 1st NAP: "Basically it's a little closer to your territory than ours, but we're pretty much limited to expanding directly south. Luddite has laid claim to a lot of territory to our east."
Doesn't seem much of truth to me no matter how you look at it
He didn't have a single city on his capital's east while I had a scout there long after this
Lord Parkin: he had laid claim to it though, he just hadn't settled it yet because there was better land in other directions. At the time the understanding was that I was not permitted to settle there, in return for peace.
yes, I later renegotiated a more favourable arrangement, but at the time I was genuinely constricted in my expansion options without provoking hostility
me: I've also other version of the story, but needless to say there is room for misinterpretations. Clearly you were indicating you don't have room and you need it towards us
Lord Parkin: That was how I felt at the time I was negotiating the border with you. I don't see why you should hold it against me that - later on - I managed to negotiate more land from Luddite.
Anyway, I guess we could go over this for hours (as seems typical for us ), and I've still got to get some work done at some point...
me: As Isaid this incident alone wouldn't be a big deal
but I guess I'll start warming up my relationship with Rego
It might be hard after this
Lord Parkin: Ok, it just seems that you're almost grasping at straws to dislike us in some cases. A whole lot of little nitpicks, most of which were either never an issue or were resolved at the time (e.g. Gems error).
me: That just described the attitude
Lord Parkin: Maybe I'm reading it wrong though
me: towrads us
no need to keep the deals
You can elay things as you like
No matter how we need them
It is just how you needed them
Lord Parkin: I'm not quite sure what you mean
ok, got it now
me: If you read the chats from that time. It was just excuses and I needed to fight to get the gems
Lord Parkin: reading tired, sorry
it was a valid screwup though, resulting from the 10-turn limit on trades
me: Wh yshould that affected to us?
Lord Parkin: well it was my mistake, and so it was on me to fix it, which I did by sending Gems since I couldn't free Ivory in time
me: Again not a big deal as a separate incident
But it accumulates
At some point There is too much
Lord Parkin: Well I'm sorry these little mistakes have affected you so much
Of course I'm not sure the little things would be bothering you so much if you were still the #1 partner
me: Probably not
Lord Parkin: So you're kind of admitting that these are your "excuses" then, right?
me: They're not ecuses I've been bothered by them for a long time
You can check my thread afterwards
Lord Parkin: okay... well not sure what I can do except apologise for the absent-mindedness that has resulted in many of these annoyances.
like I've said before, I wouldn't intentionally bother annoying you over such small unimportant things. I'd either go all out or not at all.
me: ok. That is alright. I didn't meant to start this dicussion, but somehow founding OB for Rego just made me see red
As a final straw
Just when I've messed my relationship with him
where you had sa big part why that happened
Lord Parkin: Ok, sorry about that. Wish you'd approached me a turn or two earlier about it, because I would have been glad to have someone standing with me on the closed borders front. After all game of keeping them closed and no-one else doing so though, I didn't see any reason to keep going when Rego finally made me a fair offer, so I accepted. Truly bad timing.
me: It was some 4T ago
You had the deal already then?
Lord Parkin: Rego had asked what he could offer to get OB. I said Banana, and he said he'd get back to me. A few turns later he said ok. Couldn't very well turn him down from an offer I'd already made...
It was still up in the air when you told me you'd closed borders with him
me: Makes sense although I wouldn't expect anyone to accept, if I delay my response for few turns. I should stop nit picking though. This isn't leading anywhere
Lord Parkin: Yeah, I would have preferred to stand with you against him on the closed borders front if I'd known, but as things turned out I didn't feel I could go back on my word in such a short time frame.
Yeah, we're going nowhere
Basically, I think the summary of our ongoing partnership is: We're willing to work closer with you (against Rego/whoever), but at least a token gesture like a small NAP extension would be required. I'd be happy to offer a friendly gesture myself in return, like for instance free resource gift(s). It really comes down to you though, if you're really set on not working with us then I can't convince you otherwise.
Not sure you'll get offers of free resources from any other civ in the game at this point
In fact I'm fairly sure you won't, though you're welcome to try your luck :D
me: Probaby not, but acute need for them takes few turns now that WW has been solved and I've soon some silk tiles online that I could try trade
Although there aren't many around intrested in them
Lord Parkin: yeah, Silk seems fairly common I think
me: Gems is more common
Lord Parkin: yeah, you guys got a bit unlucky there
me: And you quite lucky
Lord Parkin: yeah, the map maker was reasonably generous in my area... though there are quite a few other good spots too
probably a few of those resources should have been shifted 5-10 tiles further south
oh well, not much that can be done now
me: Map doesn't need to be totally balanced so this i s ok. However I thikn our spot ws one of the worst. WK's was probably a bit weker than ours so I had to be graateful for that at least
Lord Parkin: then again I had other limitations like complete lack of contact for ages
yeah, you guys were a bit cramped there relative to the rest of the map
me: In NTT games contacts are not that crucial
Lord Parkin: research bonus...
me: In TT games they easily define the end result
With 10 people not too big bonus
Lord Parkin: yeah, sure... it's still good to get contact early in NTT though
there's also the early alliances aspect, though it's not quite as pronounced without TT
still always the fact that the first guy to meet someone has a better shot at negotiating an early alliance, simply because that person doesn't have anyone else to talk to...
plus everyone knows little of the map at that point so initially wants to be friends
me: True
Lord Parkin: as opposed to the guys you meet last who have a better idea and tend to be more cagey
though of course there are exceptions
me: Sure in our case we had totally unco-operative neighbor in the beginning
Lord Parkin: Indeed, quite unusual there
me: Might be better that way since at this point with normal border agreemsents we would be royally screwed
Lord Parkin: hmm, I guess so
me: Way worse position than e.g. Nakor is now
They had at least some off shore places to go
Lord Parkin: hmm, maybe
you could have expanded a bit more towards Rego
me: It would have been Greece's land mostly
The land bridge goes toeards NE
Very hard to calim land that land to be ours
if WK was there
Lord Parkin: internet glitch, back
me: np
Lord Parkin: Greece's land bridge doesn't connect until quite far north though
pretty sure you would have got the majority up there
but still, not as good as some starts
me: Yeah. We might have been able to get there soon enough, but the quality isn't anything stellar either
No happiness resources. Couple of pigs and copper
Lord Parkin: the map seems to be a bit like that though, everyone seems to have some "nice" patches and "average to crap" patches. You had some quite awesome spots right near your start, for instance, while we had to found quite far away for any decent land (costly in maintenance)
but yeah, nothing special up to your NE it seems
who knows though, maybe a later-game resource...
me: They're alright, but I don't think your spots are that much weaker either
This feels like reverse beauty contest
Lord Parkin: lol
Overall though, I like the map. Feels very "natural", and looks good. Just a couple of minor start relocations, a few resource touch-ups, and it would be perfect.
Best map I've seen in a long time though, possibly ever
I've done mirror maps which are perfectly balanced, but they look boring as hell...
me: yeah. It is good enough, but it is always fun to complain
Lord Parkin: hehe, yeah