[SPOILER] Asoka of the Vikings (Nakor & Gaspar)

[Gaspar]

Obligatory mousover protection post...

Courtesy of the marvelous pling:




...Hrm - I can't think of any Indian soccer players of reknown, nor do I know much about any soccer playing Vikings. Well, Sweden's in that generally area of the world, and I'm sure if Asoka were alive today, he'd be an Arsenal fan, so....

[Nakor]

Good to be here! Here are our opponents:

Mackoti + Ioan76: Rooservelt of the Netherlands
Ind/Org, starting techs Fishing/Agri, East Indiaman, Dike

Don't know a lot about them.

They went for a water map. Dikes are good on a water map, but on other maps... They can rock in hammers in the late game, if they are correct.
Downside is that the UU and UB come pretty late and with NTT, they have to be in front to get the most out of their dikes.

I guess they'll try to stay safe and stay in the game. Slow, solid expansion with a few wonders tossed in.



Adlain + DL-Mania Muse: Wang Kon of Arabia
Fin/Prot, starting techs Myst/Wheel, Camel Archer, Madrassa

Don't know a lot about Adlain either.

He's playing the only Fin civ and therefore a real contender in a NTT game, but he can be an first target as well.
UU and UB are nothing special, but with cheap walls he will be tough to take down early on.

We need to keep our eyes on him and make sure that he doesn't run away with the tech race.

plako + DL antisocialmunky: Catherine of China
Imp/Cre, starting techs Agri/Mining, Cho-Ko-Nu, Pavilion

Plako is a good player! Made a huge comeback in PB2.

Guess he's going to rex like crazy! Really don't want to be close to him. UU is nice, UB not that special, but has a nice synergy with Cre.


Locke + Cervantes: Isabella of England
Exp/Spi, starting techs Fishing/Mining, Redcoat, Stock Exchange

We know what England is about, going for the long run, so I guess that's what these guys will do. Not a lot to tell about them either.
Good to see another Spiritual Civ around.

sunrise089 + DL-Rego: Shaka of the Zulu`s
Agr/Exp, starting techs Agri/Hunting, Impi, Ikhanda

Keep an eye on these two! Shaka of the Zulu is a good leader and those Impi's are fast!
Sunrise might want to rush someone after his last games here...

Luddite + Atlas1998: Bismarck of Sumeria
Exp/Ind, starting techs Agri/Wheel, Vulture, Ziggurat

Another good player. Sumeria wasn't on our list. Early courthouses can be good, but at the level we're playing, I don't really know.

Lord Parkin: DeGaulle of Egypt
Ind/Cha, starting techs Agri/Wheel, War Chariot, Obelisk

One to watch! He'll be rushing someone is he has horses. Very sure about himself and probably deserved.
Don't want to be next to him either...

WarlordDr: Washington of Greece
Exp/Cha, starting techs Fishing/Hunting, Phalanx, Odeon

What to think of this choice? Greece really isn't that good. So all the work has to come from Washington!

Sleeping Moogle + DL-sciz: Louis of Babylon
Cre/Ind, starting techs Agri/Wheel, Bowman, Garden

This was one of our options. Good synergy. Solid UU and UB that can make a difference in early game.
Cre is very nice!
Another one to watch!

And we are:

Asoka of the Vikings
Org/Spi, starting techs Fishing/Hunting, Beserker, Trading Post

More later...

[Gaspar]

I'll follow up on Nakor's analysis with a little bit more observations.

1. Mackoti + Ioan76: Roosevelt (IND/ORG) of the Netherlands

* Netherlands was an interesting first overall pick. They are extremely strong on Water maps, and with all the power leaders unavailable, there's an argument for Civ first. That said, its a bit of all your eggs in one basket, and the problem with Navy, is it doesn't come into play until the mid game, and by that point, usually tech advantage is what's making decisions, not better boats. Also, as I said in the PBEM12 spoiler thread, people overrate the importance of the Civ pick. Beyond India and Inca, which are clearly stronger than the rest, the UUs and UBs don't often make a huge impact on the game.

*Mackoti got quite a bit of analysis from me in the PBEM12 thread, where he is not actually playing. Nonetheless, I think he'd make a great friend should we be able to befriend him.

2. Adlain: Wang Kon (FIN/PRO) of Arabia

*As the lone Financial Civ, protective might not be a bad choice. Clearly, you're going to have a target on your back a little bit. Still - you're basically getting nothing from your leader choice other than 1C on 2+C tiles. Building Walls and Castles at a discount is swell, but they're both cheap anyway. I'm not saying its a bad choice, but Wang Kon was never part of our conversation, regardless of where we picked.

*All I can tell you about Adlain is that he titled one of his spoiler threads "Whistling in the Dark," which puts the song in my head every time. Damn you, Adlain.

3. plako: Catherine (CRE/IMP) of China

*Catherine was on my short list of desired leaders. Creative is great because its one of the few traits who have both a strong, "Always on" passive benefit, as well as good cheap buildings. Imperialistic is meh, but I do think cheap settlers have some value, if you can leverage them. It basically just translates to getting your first couple cities out faster. The Chinese UU is solid, but more importantly than cheap pavilions is that Agriculture/Mining is the strongest starting tech start.

*plako is clearly a strong player, with an excellent rebound in PB2. Still, before we pat him on the back too hard, lets not forget that if Whosit kept his foot on his throat, he would have been the 3rd player eliminated in that game, so he's not infallible.

4. Locke + Cervantes: Isabella (SPI/EXP) of England

*To me, Izzy was the strongest leader on the board. EXP is a great trait, giving you discounts on the things you build most. SPI is great for saving you turns in the earlier game, and allowing tremendous flexibility in the mid to late game. England we've talked about in the past, but even though we chose it in PBEM12, I only really rate it as a mediocre civ choice. Fishing/Mining isn't a bad start, but its not great either.

*I know nothing about these guys, but Locke was very combative in the signup thread, be interesting to see if it translates in game.

5. sunrise089 + Rego: Shaka (AGG/EXP) of Zululand

*Interesting choice - Impi's are the best choking UU, and a decent rush choice. Ikhanda's are ok, giving you sort of ghetto ORG, and Shaka was also a solid choice. AGG gets panned on these boards, as its discounts are weak, and the free C1 is not as strong since it doesn't carry to the two movers, but in this game, it wasn't a bad choice. Zulu starts with Agriculture/Hunting, which is mediocre.

*sunrise & rego have had a mixed bag of success in these games, but they are clearly strong players, and as Nakor mentioned, might be inclined to rush early in the interest of beating back some past demons in these games. I would walk into their undefended capital in a heartbeat, if given the chance.

I'll evaluate the second 5 players in my next post.

[Gaspar]

6. Luddite + Atlas1998: Bismarck (EXP/IND) of Sumeria

*Bismarck is a decent choice as well, EXP well covered already and IND always solid for cheap forges if nothing else. Wonder chasing has its value, though there are few enough wonders worth the risks that I'm not a huge fan of IND here. Agriculture/The Wheel is the second best starting tech combo, IMO, and I'm sure that was the real reason for choosing them. Vultures suck and while Ziggurat's have value, you really don't need courthouses any earlier than you normally get them.

*Luddite is obviously a very strong player, though we don't know much about his tendencies, as his only MP game here is still in early days. I know nothing about Atlas1998 though. I expect this to be a dangerous team nonetheless.

7. Lord Parkin: DeGaulle (IND/CHA) of Egypt

*Egypt is probably the most "usual suspect" Civ pick in this game, as War Chariots are an excellent early rush unit, and they have that same Agriculture/The Wheel start. Obelisks are situationally useful, though one might wonder if the IND/CHA choice telegraphs a Stonehenge run. Raise the happy cap via CHA, free GP points, etc whilst using the threat of War Chariots to protect yourself. Its pretty smart strategy, though it could leave you boxed in if you neglect expansion. You also have to assume a religion is on the cards for him, as he lucked out with only one Mysticism Civ, and one less inclined to actually use it most likely. If he lands next to sunrise/rego, he might be in for a very short game.

*I don't know anything about him - though he's got a superiority tone in his posts that rubs me the wrong way. Krill can get away with that because he's very good. LP hasn't proven anything yet here, so we'll see. I would be very surprised if he didn't get declared on at somepoint with that attitude though.

8. WarlordDr: Washington (EXP/CHA) of Greece

*Washington was a solid choice, the usual EXP choice plus CHA allowing for further vertical expansion. Greece was discussed by us, but really, its a weak civ. Phalanxes are not a strong UU, and the Odeon is garbage as well. Fishing/Hunting is the worst starting tech combo. I just can't see any reason to take Greece, especially with Washington. To each their own, however.

*WarlordDr is new to RB, though he's apparently an MP buddy of sunrise, so expect an MP kind of player. Always a threat in these games.

9. Nakor + Gaspar: Asoka (SPI/ORG) of the Vikings

* I'll save us for last.

10. Sleeping Moogle: Louis (CRE/IND) of Babylon

*As Nakor said, this was one of the combos we considered. Babylon is an underrated Civ, Bowmen are strong UU and Gardens are ok UBs, the starting techs are Agriculture/Wheel, none too shabby. Louis is a solid leader as well, and has synergy with Babylon. All told, well picked.

*SleepingMoogle has won a PBEM here, so he's obviously a player to be taken seriously. He also had a terrible start in another PBEM, so he's a bit inconsistent. Still, he's shown to be a solid player and a strong diplomat.

I'll analyse us as well as my thoughts on the game overall in the next post.

[Gaspar]

So we are...

Asoka (SPI/ORG) of the Vikings

Though you knew that already. The question is why? Well, obviously we picked late in the first round, so that limited our options. By the time the draft came around to us, all of the FIN & EXP leaders were gone. So a lot of the question came around to two issues:

1. Which of the middle tier traits did we value most strongly?
2. What, if any, synergy could we create between Civ and Leader?

Isabella was, to me, the best leader left on the board after the restrictions. EXP is a first tier trait, and SPI allows for extreme tactical flexibility. Once she was off the board, there was no leader left that was by themselves a reason to pick them. So we took a look at Civs - eliminating those who were off the board before we picked, we were basically down to the following:

Vikings - Berserker, Trading Post, Fishing, Hunting
Aztecs - Jaguar, Sacrificial Altar, Hunting, Mysticism
Carthage - Numidian Cavalry, Cothon, Fishing, Mining
Babylon - Bowman, Garden, The Wheel, Agriculture

Why these? Well, rather than assess every Civ except Netherlands and Egypt, lets just say once the list was narrowed, these offered to us what seemed the most interesting possibilities. I've said before that in a lot of ways, I think starting techs are the most important Civ-specific ability. Why then did we pick the Civ with the cheapest combo, Scout start, etc? Well, its not *fun* to pick a Civ for just the starting techs. So there you have that.

We wanted to take an EXP leader with Carthage, an ORG leader with the Aztecs or Vikings, and a CRE leader with Babylon. Isabella of Carthage was probably our top pick, Washington of Carthage second. After that, we had pretty much decided the Vikings were a stronger pick than Azteca, so that was that. In the end, it pretty much boiled down to Asoka of the Vikings or Louis of Babylon. Why did we go the route we did? Well, I think Bowmen are probably better than Berserkers, but assuming Naval power has any relevance, we felt pretty comfortable that Trading Posts would do more for us than Gardens. Also, I think I just like SPI.

What's our game plan? Well, we haven't made that yet. While Spiritual naturally dovetails with religion, I don't necessarily know that we'll take that approach. I think there's a natural tendency to island expansion with Organized that also fits with the Vikings - perhaps landing a fleet of Nav1 galleys filled with Berserkers for some early Sirian Doctrine strikes, then popping out cheap courthouses in your conquests to make them affordable. Nothing too earth shattering here - regardless, given that we have two mid-tier economic traits its almost guaranteed that we'll need to go to war at some point. In fact, 6 players have one of the two strong expansion traits. I think our game will be won or lost based on how well we can leverage Spiritual.

I'll leave it to Nakor to give some more thoughts before I spam the thread any further.

[Nakor]

Nice analysis, Gaspar!

We really need to see what the map is like before we make our gameplan. i do hope for a lot of water and a kind of PB2 map. That was great fun!

We might want to consider going for the Colossus. Together with our trading posts, that would make water tiles very useable...

Need some more time to think, though...

[Kyan]

Hmm, it's interesting to see how you guys tick! Best of luck chaps.

[Gaspar]

Hmm, it's interesting to see how you guys tick! Best of luck chaps.

I somehow feel like this bodes ill for PBEM12.

[Gaspar]

I was thinking about this a bit as I was playing our PBEM12 turn, I bet we are disappointed with the map. The fact that Krill was very comfortable indicating there'd be water - he's not going to build another PB2 style map, despite that being a lot of fun. With Donut type scripts off the table, what's left? I'd be shocked if we saw an island or archipelago type map, that really is a lot less fun for the lurkers in this sort of a game - people like it if we're all on each other, and quickly. Continents is also pretty much out, because that adds variables into play that nobody really likes.

This leaves either a pangaea style map with a lot of shoreline (though that would necessarily require Toroidal wrap to be fair, and I think I recall seeing Cylindrical in the organizing thread. My bet is on an all land map - something like PBEM3 or PBEM4, where you have a large inland sea to offer naval combat options, but where we're all still reachable by land. That's really going to make our Trading Posts and Berserkers pretty worthless if its the case. Still - time will tell, but that's what I'm thinking right now.

[Nakor]

Let's hope you are wrong, Gaspar! I'm sure Krill will come up with a nice map that you don't really expect. He won't make a map for the lurkers.

Time will tell, though...