FFH PBEM3?

[Selrahc]

Wouldn't it be better to take a more standard map script than Erebus? I've heard that script could cause some problens such as capitals placed as close as 3 tiles from each other.

Erebus continent and Erebus are different map scripts.

Compact Enforced would be the simplest solution. Do we really want a couple of AIs suddenly appearing in the game?

And if someone wants to summon the civs so they can play as them? An infernal/mercurian rush was one of the strategies I considered for PBEM 1... compact enforced removes it from the game entirely. Do the AI's actually cause a big problem? It also warps the balance of Infernal Pact quite heavily if you're not summoning Hyborem with it.

I'm not even sure if another human can take over the Mercurians or Infernals. The 'Take over AI' option is greyed out on a PBEM game, so I don't really know what happens. I would ideally like to see them both on (as AI's preferably, unless someone switched to them), but I think we might have to go with Compact Enforced so we don't have to worry about it.

I think if necessary you could run the game in pitboss for a turn to get the players where you want them.

I'd prefer to have them all in the game, but as others have mentioned, Ygdrasil, Dragon Bones and The Remnants of Patria are too powerful to have available in range of a player start position.

I'd prefer he wasn't in the game, but if others want him in a pre-set location, I won't kick too hard.

You know this is exactly the same tack we took in the first two games... first suggesting preplaced, then that getting argued against.

The last solution proposed was "Quest Island", an offshore city with Yggdrassil, Dragon Bones and Remnants, ruled over by Acheron. But that was shouted down in PBEM 2 because the Lanun were too likely to slay the dragon if he was overseas and take his nice city.

Here it could probably work out if no one is playing the sea civ. Gives an incentive to naval technologies which is normally a fairly lacklustre option for non-Lanun, but you still need to get out there with enough force to kill the dragon and his cronies.

[Amelia]

But that was shouted down in PBEM 2 because the Lanun were too likely to slay the dragon if he was overseas and take his nice city.

Much to my unhappyness =(

[WarriorKnight]

Compact Enforced would be the simplest solution. Do we really want a couple of AIs suddenly appearing in the game?

If they are in the game, whoever summons them should know what their doing. Especially if it's the angels (why else build a 600 hammer wonder in a city then give it away to an AI?).

And if someone wants to summon the civs so they can play as them? An infernal/mercurian rush was one of the strategies I considered for PBEM 1... compact enforced removes it from the game entirely. Do the AI's actually cause a big problem? It also warps the balance of Infernal Pact quite heavily if you're not summoning Hyborem with it.

I agree with this. No Hyborem also means no Hell Terrain, which is one of the downsides of AV. Infernal Pact really is powerful without Hyborem around.

You know this is exactly the same tack we took in the first two games... first suggesting preplaced, then that getting argued against.

The last solution proposed was "Quest Island", an offshore city with Yggdrassil, Dragon Bones and Remnants, ruled over by Acheron. But that was shouted down in PBEM 2 because the Lanun were too likely to slay the dragon if he was overseas and take his nice city.

Here it could probably work out if no one is playing the sea civ. Gives an incentive to naval technologies which is normally a fairly lacklustre option for non-Lanun, but you still need to get out there with enough force to kill the dragon and his cronies.

My main problem with Acheron is Son of the Inferno's. Rush for Gibben, cast Dispel Magic to get rid of Loyalty, then start Dominating away for easy, early, unlimited Fire III archmages. I think For the Horde can convert them as well, although don't quote me on that.

I guess a "Quest Island" could work, but that is map dependent. I think it would be easier to just turn him off since he doesn't really have a major impact either way.

[Mardoc]

Another issue that just ocurred to me: Basium and Hyborem.

Do we want them in the game? And if we do, what do we do when they are summoned?

I'd like to have them on; I like the prospect of massive good vs. evil wars, and hell terrain, plus as people mention, it changes the balance of the game without them.

I think I'd prefer a human playing them to an AI, but maybe we ought to make rules about that? As I recall, the main issue people were worried about in PBEM 2 was that it would be hard to find an interested unspoiled player for them. In terms of relations with Hyborem, if we had a couple interested players, I think that could be arranged by the summoner negotiating with them before they start: 'Ok, I'll summon you, but you've got to agree to a 50 turn NAP and to declare war and meaningfully participate at least once'.

But there is that issue of spoiler knowledge, which I'm not sure how to get around. I'd be willing to tolerate it, since Hyborem and Basium would have been watching the world, but it might be a dealbreaker for some. In which case, AI's better than nothing. Anyone out there willing to commit to remaining unspoiled and be a summoned angel or demon?

Edit: make that 2 issues:

Map/screenshot trading: I'd be in favour of not allowing until Cartography.

Contacts: none until met in-game

(hmmm, that looks more like three issues.)

I agree with both of these.

On Acheron, I feel weakly that I'd like him around for flavor, but if people don't want him, I'm fine with that too.

[Nyktorion]

* Nyktorion would prefer high sea level for standard size (or small and low). I think 6 isn't much less than 7 and those would be a bit squashy, so I would prefer standard and normal seas, but it doesn't matter that much. Not sure who else has given an opinion.

No isolated civs is good.

Generally speaking though, the players usually at most pick the mapscript and the mapmaker does the rest. That's not to say that we can't specify parts of the map (it might help us get a mapmaker ) but it wouldn't be much fun to know the map before before playing it. I would prefer just choosing/knowing the mapscript and let the mapmaker do the rest.

I was seeing map size on the same level as map script here, and the sea level in some way as a part of the map size
The rationale for my concrete size suggestion was that standard is the usual size for 7 players (and often, this still feels quite spacious to me), and small is the usual map size for 5 players (though I have not actually played this size yet), so my suggestion just went for "landmass that is a bit larger than small, or a bit smaller than standard".

Map/screenshot trading: I'd be in favour of not allowing until Cartography.

Contacts: none until met in-game

(hmmm, that looks more like three issues.)

I agree with both items.

* Concerning Acheron: I had not thought of the combo of using Mind III and Meta II on the sons before. So that means 5-10 additional quick archmages for somebody, possibly already at Deception; that does feel a bit strong, so I'm starting to lean in favor of the No Acheron rule now.

* Concerning Basium/Hyborem: My vote would be in favor of them staying in the game, either as AIs or as humans. They add too much to the game to be left out. On the issue of whether AI or new human players should control them (or their summoners, if they choose to switch civs), Irgy's argument to let AIs control them sounds pretty convincing to me. So in total, my preference is

AI > Human > Compact Enforced

for both Basium and Hyborem. Also, their AI diplomacy gives an additional meaning to the Armageddon counter (increasing tensions between alignments as the counter rises).

[Mardoc]

I'm indifferent on map size.

On the Mercurian/Infernal front, I did check with the PBEM 4 crew and got a volunteer if we want him:

I'd definitely enjoy playing as either Hyborem or Basium if it is indeed possible, and i'm okay with avoiding everything in your PBEM up to that point, even if Hyb/Basium don't ever get summoned. In that case I can just read through the whole game after it's finished, so no harm done

I did also disclaimer my request that we haven't decided, so I think Sciz'll understand if we end up telling him thanks but no thanks.

I suppose I can see the argument about Basium, especially that he might pull you into wars you're not ready for (although I think the objection was to having the summoning player play both civs? You'll probably get varying results with two separate humans). Some of the tricks are off the table - can't gift units in FFH, for instance. And it does require you to build the Gate to get him in the first place - 600 hammers that you could otherwise have used to build units to balance the ones he'll be getting for free. Despite that, it's possible giving him a real mind instead of an AI would be too strong.

With Hyborem, though, or taking over the summoning civ, I'd prefer a human to an AI. I think by having the human player be someone who wasn't part of the game before, we can get some unpredictability out of him, without totally giving up on having him as an ally - you can always do your diplomacy negotiations with him before you summon. 'If I summon you, I want an NAP until T200, and for you to declare war once when I ask'. If you ask too much, well, then you might end up with an AI anyway .

Besides, there's still the question of what happens to your old civ if you summon Hyborem and switch. A real human would be helpful there, too - eliminate the strategy of switch and devour the summoning civ, anyway. But from my perspective, making Hyborem or your old civ be an AI makes them much less effective in a MP environment, and possibly only worth using for the side effects (hell terrain or a victim for someone who swapped to Hyb).

Practically - I don't think RB's tested whether adding a human works, although Selrahc's suggestion of temporary pitboss sure sounds like it would work even if nothing else does

To summarize people's opinions - well, someone's going to have to change their mind, cause we're all over the place here! We don't even have a majority for an option, let alone a consensus! I think I've made my case; perhaps Irgy or Nyxtorian can talk me out of it?

Compact Enforced:
Thoth

Basium/Hyb on, prefer human to AI:
Mardoc
Mr. Yellow
WarriorKnight (prefers off to AI)

Basium/Hyb on, prefer AI to human:
Irgy (prefers Basium off to human)
Nyktorian

[Mr. Yellow]

Actually, i am for having a human player over an AI for both factions. As i believe it would make to game more fun, imbalanced or not.

[Thoth]

Well, it looks like I'm in the minority.

If we are going to allow them in the game I'd prefer human controlled (assuming this could be done).

Re: Acheron
I like the "quest island" idea, but I really don't like SOI. If it was just Acheron without SOI that would be great, but I don't know if there is a way to get rid of the SOI. If there isn't a way to stop SOI from spawning I'd vote "no" to Acheron.

We could still do a "quest island" (or possibly several with one feature per island?) with the Big 3 unique features. Possibly guarded by a barb city with some powerful defenders?

[Nyktorion]

I suppose I can see the argument about Basium, especially that he might pull you into wars you're not ready for (although I think the objection was to having the summoning player play both civs? You'll probably get varying results with two separate humans). Some of the tricks are off the table - can't gift units in FFH, for instance. And it does require you to build the Gate to get him in the first place - 600 hammers that you could otherwise have used to build units to balance the ones he'll be getting for free. Despite that, it's possible giving him a real mind instead of an AI would be too strong.

With Hyborem, though, or taking over the summoning civ, I'd prefer a human to an AI. I think by having the human player be someone who wasn't part of the game before, we can get some unpredictability out of him, without totally giving up on having him as an ally - you can always do your diplomacy negotiations with him before you summon. 'If I summon you, I want an NAP until T200, and for you to declare war once when I ask'. If you ask too much, well, then you might end up with an AI anyway .

Besides, there's still the question of what happens to your old civ if you summon Hyborem and switch. A real human would be helpful there, too - eliminate the strategy of switch and devour the summoning civ, anyway. But from my perspective, making Hyborem or your old civ be an AI makes them much less effective in a MP environment, and possibly only worth using for the side effects (hell terrain or a victim for someone who swapped to Hyb).

Practically - I don't think RB's tested whether adding a human works, although Selrahc's suggestion of temporary pitboss sure sounds like it would work even if nothing else does

To summarize people's opinions - well, someone's going to have to change their mind, cause we're all over the place here! We don't even have a majority for an option, let alone a consensus! I think I've made my case; perhaps Irgy or Nyxtorian can talk me out of it?

If Hyborem's summoner just remains as a victim, he's definitely not just Hyborem's victim, but an equal opportunity victim for everyone. At least in my own games, most of the time I've seen Dis far away from the summoner.

A possibly stupid question about diplomatic arrangements before Hyborem's summoning: can't he just break them, too?

About Basium: even though he has his own diplomatic behavior, Basium's angels are probably strong than the disadvatage you get there. And couldn't his war declarations sometimes even be convenient for his summoner? (They probably incur much less of a diplo hit than if the summoner declared on his own).

On the other, maybe I'm also just blinded by comparing Basium AI opponent just to other AI opponents? And I can live nicely with Human Basium/Hyborem, as well, if the others (more precisely, I should write down my preference as: AI > Human >> Compact Enforced)

[Mardoc]

If Hyborem's summoner just remains as a victim, he's definitely not just Hyborem's victim, but an equal opportunity victim for everyone. At least in my own games, most of the time I've seen Dis far away from the summoner.

Well, that's a good point. I'm not sure which direction it points in, though I would tend to think that's an extra reason to want them both human controlled, since even if they want to ally they'll have trouble doing so, but adding AI control creates a bit of a power vacuum.

A possibly stupid question about diplomatic arrangements before Hyborem's summoning: can't he just break them, too?

Well, yes - but people breaking diplomatic deals around here are few and far between, mostly for the sake of keeping their reputations for the next game. I figure the odds of a human breaking a diplo deal aren't too much different than the odds of AI Hyborem declaring war on you even though you summoned him and are also Ashen Veil.

About Basium: even though he has his own diplomatic behavior, Basium's angels are probably strong than the disadvantage you get there. And couldn't his war declarations sometimes even be convenient for his summoner? (They probably incur much less of a diplo hit than if the summoner declared on his own).

On the other, maybe I'm also just blinded by comparing Basium AI opponent just to other AI opponents? And I can live nicely with Human Basium/Hyborem, as well, if the others (more precisely, I should write down my preference as: AI > Human >> Compact Enforced)

Yes, I do agree that Basium is usually a net plus, and expect that to be the case here - but then almost any move you can make is a net plus. The main question is whether he's valuable enough to be unbalancing if human controlled. I think, but am not certain, that Basium and Hyborem will tend to be weaker than a SP game because there will be fewer ongoing wars; most MP wars are short and decisive, so there's be fewer casualties to become manes/angels. Human control would counterbalance that, to an unknown degree. But honestly, I can't think of any way to really know that answer before it's tried.

As for diplo, I figure the diplo hit will end up being related to what the human does anyway. If AI Basium declares, but his ally sends no forces, I can't see that being much of a diplo hit (if I'm the one declared on), while if his ally comes along, I can't see that being an excuse. And if Basium is human as well, then it's no excuse whatsoever :-)

Irgy's point about Basium being more valuable as a human is definitely true in my book, I just don't think he's so valuable as to be unbalancing. Or at least I'm willing to take that risk. Mostly because I think there's so much else in the game that's unbalancing that it's just one more item, but I expect a new human to make the game more fun. I don't think anyone around here has played with a human Basium or Hyborem and all human opponents before. In fact, I think that's probably most of my motivation - although I think it wouldn't be too unbalancing, I'm not sure, but I'd like to find out.

Now, all this argument will look very silly in the end if nobody ends up summoning